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Forum
-> Shopping
DVOM
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 Wed, Jun 09 2021, 7:56 am
The highly entertaining 'designer buys' thread was locked before my super-duper important thoughts could be committed to writing!
Here they are:
Regarding 'don't judge me!':
We use our clothing and our 'stuff' to signal our belonging. When you dress in all designer clothes and buy all designer gear, you're trying to send a message about yourself: your cool, you're 'in', you belong, you're 'normal'. When this stuff becomes the uniform, all people who want entry to this club feel they must have it. Clubs are no fun when everyone can enter; part of the joy of being in a club is its inherent exclusivity. So the club uniform gets more and more expensive and difficult to obtain for the regular Joe and Jane. But if you want to be part of the club, you'll prioritize it above other expenses, because without this stuff you can't signal your belonging.
My point is (I was getting to it!!): You want others to judge you. Saying 'don't judge me based on my stuff' is kinda funny. You bought your stuff so that others can make judgment calls about you based on that very same stuff. You want to show that you belong, that you're in the know, that you've got the right stuff and are therefore the right type of person, whatever that is in your community and culture.
Regarding 'respect me!':
The problem occurs when others, usually those outside of your community, outside of the club, take a look at all the stuff that has become important signals of belonging and find it shallow, or silly, or vain, or ridiculous. You wanted the judgment of 'you belong' when people look at the stuff you've got on display, but no one likes the judgment of 'That's your club uniform??? What's wrong with all you people? Why aren't any of you thinking for yourselves, realizing how nuts it is that everyone needs the same 1,000$ stroller to feel normal?" After all, all you need to belong to this particular club is money and the knowledge of the 'correct' things to buy. Not particularly admirable traits, in and of themselves.
Of course, being human, most people like to feel they belong to something, some community, some club. But not every club has 'stuff' as their symbols of belonging. Education or community involvement or ascribing to a certain set of beliefs can also be club entry tickets.
(Someone pointed out on the other thread that one of the entry tickets to the 'imamother cool kids' club is a belief in the values of frugality, even a belief in extreme austerity. I think this is interesting and true. Of course, interesting ideas and quality writing skills are also 'imamother cool kids' entry tickets. I admire those things. It's a club I'd like to belong to!)
I don't find acquiring 'stuff' to signal belonging to be a particularly mature or interesting way to join a 'club'. Clubs like this are not ones I usually want to belong to. I know I will get tomatoed for saying so, but this is not a behavior that I'm particularly impressed with. There's no skill or effort or accomplishment in acquiring stuff. In other words, no, I don't respect it. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect YOU. There might be many things I find very respectable about you. But your designer stuff is not one of them. And if I'm really honest, it can be a challenge for me to look past all your stuff and find the things I do respect about you: your hard work, your intellect, your talents. A kind of reverse snobbery I guess. My automatic thinking is that if your willing to be part of such a boring, low-threshold-entry club, you might be a boring person. Of course, I'm proven wrong time and time again. Many people who ascribe to the 'cool designer stuff' club, are also interesting, intelligent, wonderful people.
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enneamom
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:17 am
And DVOM, I always thought you were in the Imamother cool kids club!
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Java
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:21 am
This is an excellent synopsis! Go DVOM 
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simcha2
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:22 am
This reminds me of the famous Groucho (not to be confused with Karl) Marx quip
"I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.”
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amother
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:55 am
| DVOM wrote: | The highly entertaining 'designer buys' thread was locked before my super-duper important thoughts could be committed to writing!
Here they are:
Regarding 'don't judge me!':
We use our clothing and our 'stuff' to signal our belonging. When you dress in all designer clothes and buy all designer gear, you're trying to send a message about yourself: your cool, you're 'in', you belong, you're 'normal'. When this stuff becomes the uniform, all people who want entry to this club feel they must have it. Clubs are no fun when everyone can enter; part of the joy of being in a club is its inherent exclusivity. So the club uniform gets more and more expensive and difficult to obtain for the regular Joe and Jane. But if you want to be part of the club, you'll prioritize it above other expenses, because without this stuff you can't signal your belonging.
My point is (I was getting to it!!): You want others to judge you. Saying 'don't judge me based on my stuff' is kinda funny. You bought your stuff so that others can make judgment calls about you based on that very same stuff. You want to show that you belong, that you're in the know, that you've got the right stuff and are therefore the right type of person, whatever that is in your community and culture.
Regarding 'respect me!':
The problem occurs when others, usually those outside of your community, outside of the club, take a look at all the stuff that has become important signals of belonging and find it shallow, or silly, or vain, or ridiculous. You wanted the judgment of 'you belong' when people look at the stuff you've got on display, but no one likes the judgment of 'That's your club uniform??? What's wrong with all you people? Why aren't any of you thinking for yourselves, realizing how nuts it is that everyone needs the same 1,000$ stroller to feel normal?" After all, all you need to belong to this particular club is money and the knowledge of the 'correct' things to buy. Not particularly admirable traits, in and of themselves.
Of course, being human, most people like to feel they belong to something, some community, some club. But not every club has 'stuff' as their symbols of belonging. Education or community involvement or ascribing to a certain set of beliefs can also be club entry tickets.
(Someone pointed out on the other thread that one of the entry tickets to the 'imamother cool kids' club is a belief in the values of frugality, even a belief in extreme austerity. I think this is interesting and true. Of course, interesting ideas and quality writing skills are also 'imamother cool kids' entry tickets. I admire those things. It's a club I'd like to belong to!)
I don't find acquiring 'stuff' to signal belonging to be a particularly mature or interesting way to join a 'club'. Clubs like this are not ones I usually want to belong to. I know I will get tomatoed for saying so, but this is not a behavior that I'm particularly impressed with. There's no skill or effort or accomplishment in acquiring stuff. In other words, no, I don't respect it. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect YOU. There might be many things I find very respectable about you. But your designer stuff is not one of them. And if I'm really honest, it can be a challenge for me to look past all your stuff and find the things I do respect about you: your hard work, your intellect, your talents. A kind of reverse snobbery I guess. My automatic thinking is that if your willing to be part of such a boring, low-threshold-entry club, you might be a boring person. Of course, I'm proven wrong time and time again. Many people who ascribe to the 'cool designer stuff' club, are also interesting, intelligent, wonderful people. |
Fantastic!
I also find it quite hypocritical for the demand not to be judged by the designer clothing one chooses, while at the same time judging everyone's frumkeit level based on the clothing one chooses.
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:55 am
| DVOM wrote: | The highly entertaining 'designer buys' thread was locked before my super-duper important thoughts could be committed to writing!
Here they are:
Regarding 'don't judge me!':
We use our clothing and our 'stuff' to signal our belonging. When you dress in all designer clothes and buy all designer gear, you're trying to send a message about yourself: your cool, you're 'in', you belong, you're 'normal'. When this stuff becomes the uniform, all people who want entry to this club feel they must have it. Clubs are no fun when everyone can enter; part of the joy of being in a club is its inherent exclusivity. So the club uniform gets more and more expensive and difficult to obtain for the regular Joe and Jane. But if you want to be part of the club, you'll prioritize it above other expenses, because without this stuff you can't signal your belonging.
My point is (I was getting to it!!): You want others to judge you. Saying 'don't judge me based on my stuff' is kinda funny. You bought your stuff so that others can make judgment calls about you based on that very same stuff. You want to show that you belong, that you're in the know, that you've got the right stuff and are therefore the right type of person, whatever that is in your community and culture.
Regarding 'respect me!':
The problem occurs when others, usually those outside of your community, outside of the club, take a look at all the stuff that has become important signals of belonging and find it shallow, or silly, or vain, or ridiculous. You wanted the judgment of 'you belong' when people look at the stuff you've got on display, but no one likes the judgment of 'That's your club uniform??? What's wrong with all you people? Why aren't any of you thinking for yourselves, realizing how nuts it is that everyone needs the same 1,000$ stroller to feel normal?" After all, all you need to belong to this particular club is money and the knowledge of the 'correct' things to buy. Not particularly admirable traits, in and of themselves.
Of course, being human, most people like to feel they belong to something, some community, some club. But not every club has 'stuff' as their symbols of belonging. Education or community involvement or ascribing to a certain set of beliefs can also be club entry tickets.
(Someone pointed out on the other thread that one of the entry tickets to the 'imamother cool kids' club is a belief in the values of frugality, even a belief in extreme austerity. I think this is interesting and true. Of course, interesting ideas and quality writing skills are also 'imamother cool kids' entry tickets. I admire those things. It's a club I'd like to belong to!)
I don't find acquiring 'stuff' to signal belonging to be a particularly mature or interesting way to join a 'club'. Clubs like this are not ones I usually want to belong to. I know I will get tomatoed for saying so, but this is not a behavior that I'm particularly impressed with. There's no skill or effort or accomplishment in acquiring stuff. In other words, no, I don't respect it. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect YOU. There might be many things I find very respectable about you. But your designer stuff is not one of them. And if I'm really honest, it can be a challenge for me to look past all your stuff and find the things I do respect about you: your hard work, your intellect, your talents. A kind of reverse snobbery I guess. My automatic thinking is that if your willing to be part of such a boring, low-threshold-entry club, you might be a boring person. Of course, I'm proven wrong time and time again. Many people who ascribe to the 'cool designer stuff' club, are also interesting, intelligent, wonderful people. |
You just sound jealous.
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Notsobusy
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:57 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
She really doesn't. She sounds rational and sane.
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4g01o
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:58 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
She sounds sensible to me. Or rather just a different way of explaining why designer clothes are so important to some people. So so true what she said, it makes so much sense!
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amother
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 8:59 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
No she doesn't seem jealous. Jealous of what?
She's so right. Whenever someone tries to point out the ridiculousness of our lifestyle, they're told they're jealous. Instead of saying they're jealous, let's just take a good look on ourselves and realize how ridiculous our lifestyle truly is.
On the doona stroller thread I posted that using the doona as a regular stroller is not ok, and someone replied "oh you're just jealous!" Jealous of what?? Of those that use their doona incorrectly and I use mine correctly?
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simcha2
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:01 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
Of what?
I happen to align with DVOM , so maybe I can't hear to what you are referring.
I know for myself, bH, we have a good parnassa and I could buy whatever designer clothes I wanted. I don't, because it simply makes no sense to me. It doesn't fit with my values (I don't think it's tznius, lo titaro, etc).
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hodeez
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:03 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
I've really been doing some introspection regarding this whole gashmiyut designer need, and you know what? Maybe there is a part of me that's jealous of the frivolity with which people spend their (or others') money.
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DVOM
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:06 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
Ahhh...debate! Intelligent conversation! Love it!
What do I sound jealous of?
I'll readily admit there are some clubs I'd love entry to, but I don't have the currency, and I am jealous. I don't think this club I'd one of them.
Please do elaborate!
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imaima
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:09 am
| amother [ Vanilla ] wrote: | No she doesn't seem jealous. Jealous of what?
She's so right. Whenever someone tries to point out the ridiculousness of our lifestyle, they're told they're jealous. Instead of saying they're jealous, let's just take a good look on ourselves and realize how ridiculous our lifestyle truly is.
On the doona stroller thread I posted that using the doona as a regular stroller is not ok, and someone replied "oh you're just jealous!" Jealous of what?? Of those that use their doona incorrectly and I use mine correctly? |
Why take so much time to explain that other people spending their money the way they want is wrong or a sign of smth other than being able to afford luxury?
There are tons of assumptions there that don't apply to people who actually have the money to spend.
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amother
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:09 am
| imaima wrote: | | You just sound jealous. |
Which part of her rational, well-balanced, and thought-out statement gave you this keen insight?
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PeanutMama
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:13 am
I like to think people forget ruchniyus is more important than gashmius lol - I find that when I think this way I judge much less harshly lol. But yes that too is also a thing to work on.
I forget sometimes too hah but it’s definitely something ppl should be working on…….
Love your post
Last edited by PeanutMama on Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:14 am
| imaima wrote: | Why take so much time to explain that other people spending their money the way they want is wrong or a sign of smth other than being able to afford luxury?
There are tons of assumptions there that don't apply to people who actually have the money to spend. |
Not everyone has the money but they don't want to feel less then. People are in debt to be able to keep up with the lifestyle. And this isn't living life for yourself, this is living life totally for others. It's all about what others will say and think. People are consumed with this and are forgetting the important things in life.
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amother
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:16 am
| imaima wrote: | Why take so much time to explain that other people spending their money the way they want is wrong or a sign of smth other than being able to afford luxury?
There are tons of assumptions there that don't apply to people who actually have the money to spend. |
Because it was a discussion on the table? And when people try to cloak their unseemly choices with self-righteousness or disregard, and then try to turn the tables onto the other person, it is human nature to want to set the record straight.
Curious if you have take this same approach to any discussion here. Do you apply this reasoning to all the other threads too - tznius threads, other issues of concerns, etc?
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amother
Brass
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Wed, Jun 09 2021, 9:16 am
| imaima wrote: | Why take so much time to explain that other people spending their money the way they want is wrong or a sign of smth other than being able to afford luxury?
There are tons of assumptions there that don't apply to people who actually have the money to spend. |
My point on the other thread was most of these people are wearing fakes.
She’s not jealous of their money, because they don’t really have any.
They’re buying knock offs on Ali express, to make people think they have money.
They’re borrowing to live a lifestyle they can’t afford.
No ones jealous of them, Just sad for them.
(Like I said in the other thread, I’m not one of those anti designer people. I own designer clothing. I admit, I like nice things. I just buy as much as I can afford and if I can’t, I won’t buy it on Ali so I can pretend I have channel shoes when everyone knows they’re fake)
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