Designer buys: 'Don't judge me!' and 'respect me!'

simba ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:17 am

imaima wrote:

Why take so much time to explain that other people spending their money the way they want is wrong or a sign of smth other than being able to afford luxury?

There are tons of assumptions there that don't apply to people who actually have the money to spend.

Ok. So for the wealthy that can afford this lifestyle then I hear you.I dont beleive she is jealous, I beleive she is calling out the community norm and no, the average frum family cannot maintain this lifestyle.

I live in Crown Heights. Very small wealthy percentage. Let's say for clarity 80/20. But the stroller display would indicate the exact opposite. 80% have bugagboos.

DVMOM. Thank you for opening a thread to share your thoughts.

amother

↑ Vanilla ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:20 am

My father is a bit of an asken in our community. You don't want to know how many seemingly well off people come crying to him that they haven't a penny to marry off their kids. My father goes around collecting money for them and no one knows. It's crazy.

avrahamama ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:22 am

I am jealous lol. I'd love to be able to learn how to take better care of myself. I'd love to feel comfortable spending money on certain things. I know that even if I did have more discretionary income I wouldn't. I'm tooooo practical. I even bought my stroller off craigslist!

I don't shop for myself. I barely wear the makeup or jewelry I do own. And it's good I'm like that because we really don't have the money. But I also know that I just don't like to spend money in general.

I feel comfortable wherever I go though because I generally like everyone and enjoy being around other and meeting new people.

OOTforlife

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:24 am

If a bunch of people are freely spending their money on the luxuries that genuinely most appeal to them individually, they will buy lots of different kinds of items and will wind up looking different from each other. One person might buy a black Tesla, another might buy a bright orange Hummer, and a third might buy an expensive motorcycle. They are all pricy, but all offer different driving experiences and have a different appeal. But if 90% of people in a community are buying black Teslas, they're probably not buying what they actually personally most want and enjoy.

keym ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:25 am

Fascinating conversation and analysis.
Though the complicated conversation of Children comes into play.
Personally I'm against brand names for the name. I try to model an emphasis researching price and value and making a decision that way.
My son wants "stretch jogger pants" for camp. His friends all have Tiros. He doesn't NEED the brand. He WANTS the brand. He NEEDS a similar style.
But Amazon has Tiros for under $25. So do I buy it? I feel like at his age and stage and personality, I buy Tiros now, he expects Tiros in the future. Or do I buy more expensive (this year) no-name pants to continue the no-name habit?

↑ 4g01o ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:30 am

keym wrote:

I have the same issue. My son wanted the real crocs so I said he needs to pay towards them bc the copies are just as good. In the end I paid for them bc I found a pair for very reasonable. He did agree to pay x amount towards them though, before I found the cheaper ones. That's how I knew how important they actually were to him. Rolling Eyes

↑ simcha2

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:30 am

If you want to know someone's values look how the spend their time and where they spend their money.

As a frum woman I hope my time and money spent reflect the values of avodas Hashem and ואהתך לרעך כמוך.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:31 am

keym wrote:

In this particular situation I might include the child in the process and say here is the budget we have for pants...oh wow look these are on sale for this price that we can afford and is reasonable, would you like these. Great that they happen to be the it thing that is popular. You can also comment that it's nice that this time it worked out that this particular thing was on sale when you needed it! It won't always work out like that but great!

amother

↑ Vanilla ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:32 am

Fab4 wrote:

Actually, the imitation crocs eat up my kids feet and sweat terribly. I buy crocs and natives on Amazon and I've never spent more than $20 on them.

↑ imaima ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:33 am

OOTforlife wrote:

Well a black Tesla and an orange Hummer are two ends of a spectrum when it comes to environmental friendliness, for example.

I know it is not a thing for a "frum" community but for many well-off people around the globe it is.

There are many factors here. As far as the color, I don't see how it differs from a ubiquitous slinky black skirt that noone objects to. It's black and matches everything.

Last edited by imaima on Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

DarkViolet

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:34 am

OOTforlife wrote:

.

I think this is really an important point. I think frum communities copy each other so much that people become like clones. And if you aren't a clone, you stick out quite a bit.

amother

Lightcoral

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:36 am

what's interesting is that supposedly a lot of "wealthier" people don't flaunt their wealth, they spend on what makes them happy. clothing might be very expensive and well tailored but won't have a brand name visible on it...

↑ 4g01o

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:37 am

amother [ Vanilla ] wrote:

Actually, the imitation crocs eat up my kids feet and sweat terribly. I buy crocs and natives on Amazon and I've never spent more than $20 on them.

My kids have never had a problem with the imitation crocs. Maybe bc we don't live in such a hot country so they don't get used that much without socks. Now it's been boiling so I'm glad he has them. We have air con though so he'll get way more use out of them when we go away in the summer hols.

↑ simba

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:41 am

imaima wrote:

She is pointing out those cars because they are statement/brand name cars. And that is the topic.
Not their eco- friendly scoring.

↑ keym ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:41 am

But I think a really important point needs to be taken from OP.
If one really feels others shouldn't judge her on the external choices- Chanel or not, label or not, etc. It's ironic that some of the same people judge and think it's acceptable to judge other external factors- head covering style, shirt color or style, etc.

And I think at least be consistent.

amother

Burntblack ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:47 am

keym wrote:

It in a certain sense the OP was judging those people as perhaps being shallow inside based on their outside... though she did say she was willing to be proven wrong...

amother

Petunia ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:53 am

simcha2 wrote:

This.
Whose values do I respect more?
1. The woman who spends hours on Instagram to see what's trending and then scours the internet to buy imitation designer brands, and ends up getting bargains, or
2. The woman who walks into a store, chooses what she likes, pays $1000 and then walks out and doesn't think about her clothes now that she has what she needs?

For me, it's obviously #2. The issue isn't necessarily how much money you spend, it's how you spend your time and mental energy. There are some things that are just outrageously expensive and therefore not modest, but to me they are far less problematic for society than a culture of chasing luxury.

↑ avrahamama ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:55 am

simcha2 wrote:

I prefer to look at how they treat others instead of counting their money or how they choose to use it.

I know lots of millionaires living well, dressed to the nines. I don't keep their calendars or their schedules so I don't know exactly how they spend their time. But they treat others with kindness, respect, generosity.

When they shop for themselves and their kids they also buy beautiful and nice things for others who wouldn't have money for that stuff.

But unless we decide to inspect them with a magnifying lens we wouldn't necessarily know.

amother

↑ Burntblack ↓

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:55 am

I bh have the money but designer names mean nothing to me.
My family however is really into that stuff. It bothers me that I’m never given any recognition for my beautiful (I think) non designer stuff - though I am in therapy for past trauma and I am learning to give myself my own recognition.

The thing is - I never look down at my sil at all- like one of them said: we each have our own yetzer horahs, and boy is she right!
My trauma left me with my own demons to battle and they aren’t pretty at all.
So I battle certain addictions and self harm, she battles keeping up with the jonses... I would feel sad if you looked down at me because of my struggles and so too I can respect her despite our differences..Our struggles look different but that doesn’t make any of us “less then”. And like I learnt in dbt classes: all people at any given point in time are doing the best they can.

I seriously love you all: gucci or target

Stars

Wed, Jun 09 2021, 6:58 am

DVOM wrote:

The highly entertaining 'designer buys' thread was locked before my super-duper important thoughts could be committed to writing!

Here they are:

Regarding 'don't judge me!':

We use our clothing and our 'stuff' to signal our belonging. When you dress in all designer clothes and buy all designer gear, you're trying to send a message about yourself: your cool, you're 'in', you belong, you're 'normal'. When this stuff becomes the uniform, all people who want entry to this club feel they must have it. Clubs are no fun when everyone can enter; part of the joy of being in a club is its inherent exclusivity. So the club uniform gets more and more expensive and difficult to obtain for the regular Joe and Jane. But if you want to be part of the club, you'll prioritize it above other expenses, because without this stuff you can't signal your belonging.

My point is (I was getting to it!!): You want others to judge you. Saying 'don't judge me based on my stuff' is kinda funny. You bought your stuff so that others can make judgment calls about you based on that very same stuff. You want to show that you belong, that you're in the know, that you've got the right stuff and are therefore the right type of person, whatever that is in your community and culture.

Regarding 'respect me!':

The problem occurs when others, usually those outside of your community, outside of the club, take a look at all the stuff that has become important signals of belonging and find it shallow, or silly, or vain, or ridiculous. You wanted the judgment of 'you belong' when people look at the stuff you've got on display, but no one likes the judgment of 'That's your club uniform??? What's wrong with all you people? Why aren't any of you thinking for yourselves, realizing how nuts it is that everyone needs the same 1,000$ stroller to feel normal?" After all, all you need to belong to this particular club is money and the knowledge of the 'correct' things to buy. Not particularly admirable traits, in and of themselves.

Of course, being human, most people like to feel they belong to something, some community, some club. But not every club has 'stuff' as their symbols of belonging. Education or community involvement or ascribing to a certain set of beliefs can also be club entry tickets.

(Someone pointed out on the other thread that one of the entry tickets to the 'imamother cool kids' club is a belief in the values of frugality, even a belief in extreme austerity. I think this is interesting and true. Of course, interesting ideas and quality writing skills are also 'imamother cool kids' entry tickets. I admire those things. It's a club I'd like to belong to!)

I don't find acquiring 'stuff' to signal belonging to be a particularly mature or interesting way to join a 'club'. Clubs like this are not ones I usually want to belong to. I know I will get tomatoed for saying so, but this is not a behavior that I'm particularly impressed with. There's no skill or effort or accomplishment in acquiring stuff. In other words, no, I don't respect it. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect YOU. There might be many things I find very respectable about you. But your designer stuff is not one of them. And if I'm really honest, it can be a challenge for me to look past all your stuff and find the things I do respect about you: your hard work, your intellect, your talents. A kind of reverse snobbery I guess. My automatic thinking is that if your willing to be part of such a boring, low-threshold-entry club, you might be a boring person. Of course, I'm proven wrong time and time again. Many people who ascribe to the 'cool designer stuff' club, are also interesting, intelligent, wonderful people.

This is my favorite post of all times. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us! I love the way you think (and write)!