S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?

thunderstorm ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

It's actually a good thing that in my community there isn't pressure to have big over the top blowouts for the boys. (Not minimizing the cost of a Kiddush and meals for say, a few dozen family members, but there are ways to do a lot yourself, vs. what is, in effect, a wedding.)

Agree. I only have boys. My boys are all given a choice. Either a simple homemade kiddush in shul and a family Seuda at our home and a trip to Israel for the first time in their lives with my DH. Or a Simcha in a hall with music, a catered meal etc. All my kids chose the first option. Thusfar even with the Israel trip included , we have never spent more than $6,000, per Bar Mitzvah.
My sister only had girls. She is doing a Bat Mitzvah now , that to me is more like a wedding . Custom gowns for mom and the girls , hall, caterer, party planner , 250 guests, flowers , music, DJ, photographer, entertainment for the girls, packages for girls to bring home at the end of the party, invitations etc. I think it's ridiculous but this is what EVERYONE in their community does so how can we "deprive" our daughters of the same?
Crazy world!!!

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

But that's your Choice and what you did with your girls sound beautiful . and you did with your girls how you see for it's different then putting yourself in to debt for your boys and doing nothing for your girls Bec it not appropriate and wrong. I have friends who celebrated their boys beyond their means and didn't even acknowledge their girls bat mitzvah that to be is wrong.

I agree - even though the venue might be different (I wouldn't be taking my sons to the jewelry store) my approach would be the same for both my sons (don't have any so this is theoretical I guess) and daughters.

Thinking about this, I would say that perhaps in the end the boys' affair would cost somewhat more, with price of a dinner plus the shul....but OTOH I spend on my girls in other areas that I might not spend on boys. Clothes, shoes, accessories, etc...

I do think though, that the approach and attitude toward girls should be treated with the same respect and consideration.

amother

Orange ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:13 am

flowerpower wrote:

Honestly, I don't raise my kids with the new mentality that men and women are equal. They are both different and have different advantages and qualities. They are both special in their own ways.
Now regarding simchas- bar mitzvahs in my circles can range from $1200 up to $30,000. Everyone does as they please. Many make in a takana hall, in a shul, in their house, in a regular hall.... whatever floats their boat. Boys have an official bar mitzvah is something that is celebrated with a minyan. By us it's a big deal- they get a whole new wardrobe- suits, hats, wool tzitis, white shirts, tefillin... they now have to daven with a minyan, bentch mezinim....
A girl is now considered an adult so many people make a challah party with the girl takes challah for the first time.. Many schools frown upon making a big Bas Mitzvah( due to peer pressure) so they make one big party in school for the whole class or grade. I am happy about it because making Bar Mitzvahs is enough of a pressure for me( nice dresses for everyone....) so at least by the girls I can plan something fun and spiritual at the same time.

While I certainly believe men and women are different and have different roles for serving Hashem and that doesn't make one better or more special than the other, that argument only holds up if you truly highlight the importance of each role. Sorry, but if you spend thousands of dollars on celebrations for boys lasting a whole weekend and girls celebrate by baking challah with their sisters and cousins on a Sunday, that just shows that the concept of "different roles but women aren't second class" is apologetic BS. You can talk till you're blue in the face about binah yeseirah and how Hashem commended Avraham to listen to his wife, and women are actually on a higher spiritual level and that's why they don't need as many mitzvos- but if there's such a massive disparity in how things are presented, it sends a message that is not at all consistent with those teachings. I don't believe women are second class citizens according to Torah Judaism, but certain social practices sure as heck make it look like it.

amother

Puce ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:15 am

I love that, powderblue! My daughter is just a baby, but I would love to do something like that for her!
I'm chassidish, and the way it works in our community is; Bar Mitzvah's are for family, usually in a small hall, sometimes at home (depending on the financial situation and the amt of boys in the family... - I've been to both) totally not over the top. The meal is usually only for close family and there is a sweet table for everyone who is invited to dessert.
Bas mitzvas are much smaller. I had a shaloshudes for my class, and my mother went with me to get a piece of jewelry. I felt very special, and never thought about being jealous or that it's not fair that boys get a bar mitzvah.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:19 am

amother wrote:

I didnt have time to read the whole thread yet.
But this bothers me a lot. Lakewood rw. So when my girls became bas mitzva I did as big as I could within standards. We dont Iinvite classmates but neither do the boys. In a school with 8 parallel classes and lots of rearranging my daughter would want to invite 95 classmates former classmates and friends. So the schools dont let. But boys also.
So we made a really fancy in house party for her for family. Rented tablecloths and napkins. China and silverware. 3 course meal plus a homemade sweet table. She spoke, my husband and I spoke and some grandparents gave divrei bracha.
She made challa by herself with a few friends the day of her bas mitzva, and she said over a synopsis of hilchos hafrashas challa.
My husband learned with her in advance of her birthday significant portions of kitzur shulchan aruch- kashrus, brachos, shabbos, yom tov, ribbis, and a few others. And I learned sefer mishlei and tehillim with her.
No we didnt have a 300 person party but we showed her how important we view her new status.
Oh and we bought her a new dress and earrings and paid to have her hair done.
And after the event I made a photo book for her.
Tznius, special and I spent no more than $700 including the dress because I did the cooking myself and got most of the stuff at gemachs.

nice!

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:22 am

amother wrote:

This.

Put yourself in the place of a young girl. Her brother has a blow-out bar mitzvah. Everyone is invited. Great food, dancing. No expense spared. Heck, mom and dad spend extra to get a longer tablecloth, because the short ones just won't do.

A few months later, its her turn. Is everyone invited? No. Great food. Mom's cooking a special dinner! Dancing? Whatcha got on your phone? Oh, but we'll let you back some bread with your friends if you like. Now that your brother is bar mitzvah, he can say motzei over it next Shabbat!

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:23 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm another mother of girls and DH was adamantly against Bat Mitzva parties. I will say this - had we had sons, I don't think their parties would've been particularly fancy or over the top. In general, we favor a toned-down, simple approach. I might have done the cooking myself and made a simple affair in a shul, in any case.

I did mark my daughter's Bat Mitzva by taking them to choose a nice, expensive (for our budget) piece of jewelry, and they invited their cousins and friends to a Challah baking in our home, where they did the hafrasha and each guest took home her own homemade, delicious Challah.

BTW R' Moshe Feinstein, when asked about Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, said that if it was up to him he'd say to do neither.

My grandfather A"H told me that that was the case when he grew up. His father was OOT the day of his Bar Mitzvah. He was given an Aliyah, and after davening the Rav invited him to drink a L'Chaim with him.

Just reread what you wrote. Are you saying that the rav invited the boy (your grandfather) to have a l’chaim, or his father? (That’s a whole different conversation, but I’m just curious)

↑ SixOfWands ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:24 am

amother wrote:

Sounds lovely.

amother

↑ Powderblue

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:26 am

amother wrote:

Thx. It just got me so annoyed. Big party for boys nothing for girls.

↑ flowerpower ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:29 am

amother wrote:

My girls are off on Sundays, they come home 3 hours earlier than my son and 5 hours earlier than my bucherim every day.... they have their advantages. Trust me. They never felt second class and neither did I!!!

↑ thunderstorm

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

I think this is perfect and it has meaning and purpose as opposed to all the show of gashmius .

pause

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:35 am

I don't get the whole ra'ash here. As far as I know a bar mitzva celebration isn't even a seudas mitzva. I know many people who b'shitta don't have music because of this. Most people I know serve a meal to the minimum amount of couples needed by the caterer in a hall. If their home is large enough they do it there. Inviting only men is also something done (admittedly not by many) in my circles.

As far as a bas mitzva, we celebrate her new status in a way that befits Kol kevuda bas melech penima. So an at-home, intimate gathering is way more appropriate than some ridiculous 300 person party.

Just like a boy is acknowledged with his inclusion into a minyan and getting an aliyah on Shabbas, a girl should be acknowledged by the female mitzvos she is now allowed to do I.e. taking challah. Which again, the male role is a public one while the female role is a more private one.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:37 am

flowerpower wrote:

Yes, each gender has their own advantages in their daily routines of life. But I'm not sure how that equates with throwing a large celebration when one child reaches a milestone, and doing a little something for another child when she reaches the same milestone.

MrsDash

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:41 am

To be brutally honest, I think making a massively expensive event is unnecessary for both genders. I must sound like a stick in the mud, but this whole thing has gotten way out of proportion. You can still make it special without spending a fortune. Trust me, you won’t lose any gan eiden points for throwing a low key celebration.

I’m not saying to serve toast and butter in your kitchenette. Think “birthday party” with an extra zing. Like a barbecue, or a Chinese buffet. Spotify isn’t your thing? Hire a kid to run a keyboard. Save the money for the hat and tefillin, and perhaps a credit card bill or finally fixing that leaky pipe that’s destroying the laundry rooms ceiling.

Cheers

amother

↑ Orange

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:45 am

flowerpower wrote:

That's not the point. Look, I'm glad I don't have to drag myself out of the house every morning and evening to go to shul. And there are plenty of other perks too that come with being a woman. But that doesn't make it less of a problem when women are erased from pictures or made to sit in the back of the bus. Or when there is a significant disparity between how a boy's entry into adulthood is celebrated versus a girl's. And this doesn't mean everything is going to be even-steven and look the same. Obviously the boy is going to get an aliyah and the girl won't. The boy's drasha is going to be different from the girl's dvar Torah. But if a boy has a big party with lots of people and music and dancing and fancy food, and the girl gets a few friends over and a "project" (most of which are pretty babyish for a 12 year, IMO), that is sending a message that the boy is worth more of a celebration than girls. There's no way you can explain it differently. Just because some girls accept whatever explanation or don't personally feel slighted, doesn't take away from the reality of the message that it sends.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 10:50 am

MrsDash wrote:

Agreed! But however you choose to celebrate for the boy, do similar for the girl. If you opt for low key, do low key for both. If you prefer it be a larger affair, consider it for both.

Incorporating large differences between the two, implicitly implies that you place more value on one over the other. Employing similar measures displays equal value of both genders in our society. It's not trying to compare mitzvah for mitzvah, obligation for obligation, and measure for measure. Doing so recognizes the inherent value and contributions of both genders in our society.