S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?

↑ leah233 ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

BTW R' Moshe Feinstein, when asked about Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, said that if it was up to him he'd say to do neither.

The explanation I gave for why less of a deal is made for a Bas Mitzvah is something I heard from one of Rav Moshe's sons. Seeing how unpopular it is I won't say which one.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:37 am

amother wrote:

I don't agree. I spent about $1000 on DD's party and close to $30,000 on DS's party. That doesn't include the kiddish, and I didn't buy a new sheital or a diamond anniversary band. The community can't afford to match the girls with the boys. I often get appeals to give money for Bar Mitzvahs as it is. Do you really think we should impose another obligation on top of all the ones now because some think it is positive for woman?

Girls will have their days when they get married.

We didn't spend that much on our daughters' chasunas.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:41 am

amother wrote:

Realistically, you are not going to be able to get the community to scale back on boys parties. So the options become to leave things as they are or give the girls over the top parties also.

I'll be honest. If I lived closer to family, we probably would have had to have done something. I hope I could have got away with some sort of Sunday open house, even if it would have had to been held in a shul/hall. We would have chosen one that would allow outside food, probably would have hired a party planner/wait staff and spent a little, and yeah, we would NOT have done the same for our daughters but we wouldn't have done nothing, so there would have been some expense.

But we still would have kept it real and ... logical. That's the only word I can think of now.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:42 am

amother wrote:

Families with many children have less lavish weddings than families with fewer kids. They know they have to make many events. Once families start making events for all children, not just boys, they will naturally scale back. The folks who can make over the top parties will keep at it for all their children, and those who can't, won't.

B"H, I know people with fewer children who managed to keep their chasunas real. They might have spent more than I did, but they were b'taampt.

amother

Purple ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:42 am

leah233 wrote:

A boys life is changed far more after his Bar Mitzvah than a girls after her Bas Mitvah . He starts putting on Tefilin on a daily basis etc. And he already been doing were more mitzovhs but now he is doing them as a gadol. Therefore the event of his accepting and commencing a life of mitzvohs is more noteworthy than a girl doing so .When you are celebrating someone doing mitzvos the more mitzvos they will be doing the bigger the celebration.

A Bar Mitzvah celebration is not celebrating the amount of mitzvohs the boys have, it is celebrating that they have now reached adulthood and they are obligated in fulfilling the mitzvohs. That same concept applies to the girls at 12.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:47 am

leah233 wrote:

I knew I would get slammed for my answer but are you denying that men have more mitzvos than women do?

I didn't say anything about after 120. I think a women who sacrificed more for mitzvos than a men certainly will be better better off than him after 120.

I would never make such an assumption, and again Judaism is not about quantity. It’s about the quality.
I forget who it was, but there was someone who did “every aveira in the book.” He was once with a harlot and she said something to him and he was like (obviously not his exact words) “oh man, what have I done?” He went into the forest and sat down on a log and let out a big, deep, heartfelt sigh. He does on the spot, and then a bas kol announces something along the lines of he is a huge trading and he has huge olam haba. Why? Because the quality of the one mitzva he did, teshuva, was tremendous.
I have never counted, and to me it really doesn’t make a difference. We (our family, not the general we) celebrate a bar mitzva becasue we are celebrating a milestone. No more, no less. We don’t celebrate HOW MANY mitzvos our sons have, we celebrate that they are now mechuyav in certain things. We don’t count how many things or compare them to other people. We want them to strive to do the best they can, within THEIR ability. We do the same for our girls. We celebrate that they are now mechuyav. That’s all.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:49 am

leah233 wrote:

So do I. There is nothing about changing more diapers the day after a bas mitzvah

You said this:

Quote:

are you denying that men have more mitzvos than women do?

I wasn't talking about Bas Mitzvah here, but about amount of mitzvos of men vs. women.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:53 am

pesek zman wrote:

Absolutely horrified by this assessment. As I am by the posters who are saying the girl gets a wedding (as if a Jewish woman's role is only important in a supporting role to a man)

I'm assuming that poster is chassidish. In the chassidish world, the main focus during the engagement period is all the externals - the wedding itself, the wardrobe, housewares, gifts etc, with not much thought about the boy and life after. With that in mind, it is true that the wedding and engagement period is mostly for the girl as the boys have very little interest in all this.

It is a very sad state of affairs with messed up priorities. The true importance and essence of what a wedding and engagement period should actually be, is replaced with externals and misdirected focus. Using this as a placation tool for the girls makes this even distressing.

Imo, (and I'm from an Ultra-Chassidic community), the ideal way is to acknowledge both the Bar and Bas Mitzvahs of our children and the marriage celebration / engagement period should be refocused to what its actual purpose is.

flowerpower ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:54 am

Honestly, I don't raise my kids with the new mentality that men and women are equal. They are both different and have different advantages and qualities. They are both special in their own ways.
Now regarding simchas- bar mitzvahs in my circles can range from $1200 up to $30,000. Everyone does as they please. Many make in a takana hall, in a shul, in their house, in a regular hall.... whatever floats their boat. Boys have an official bar mitzvah is something that is celebrated with a minyan. By us it's a big deal- they get a whole new wardrobe- suits, hats, wool tzitis, white shirts, tefillin... they now have to daven with a minyan, bentch mezinim....
A girl is now considered an adult so many people make a challah party with the girl takes challah for the first time.. Many schools frown upon making a big Bas Mitzvah( due to peer pressure) so they make one big party in school for the whole class or grade. I am happy about it because making Bar Mitzvahs is enough of a pressure for me( nice dresses for everyone....) so at least by the girls I can plan something fun and spiritual at the same time.

amother

↑ Coral ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:54 am

eema of 3 wrote:

Rabbi Eliezer been Dordaya. The story is on Avoda Zara 17a. It's kind of earthy.

mommyla

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:55 am

In Lakewood, the schools have rules that classmates may not be invited to the party - bar AND bas mitzvahs. The boys generally have a breakfast in school when they put on tefillin and their classmates may come to the kiddush on Shabbos, which tends to be celebrated at the same level as a baby girl kiddush. (ETA: in my neighborhood, at least.)

I am glad that the rules are the same for the boys and girls, though there are no limits on what kind of party you make for either one... I find that my MO cousins make much bigger, more lavish bashes for both genders than my yeshivish relatives. I certainly haven't seen any $30k bar mitzvahs! That's outrageous!

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:58 am

flowerpower wrote:

My boys and girls are also not equal. But that doesn’t mean one is lesser. My daughters will have a nice meal a Malka or Sunday party with family and friends, as will my sons.

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 6:59 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I keep hearing on imamother about the community supporting families. Well, I'm game, but I'm still looking for that supposed support... is there something I'm missing? shock

One place to start is to check out all the community halls on Sundays. There are Tzedakah parties going on weekly and sadly to say, all the halls are double-booked.

The next place to focus on is the considerable amount of Tzedakah organizations and the jammed mailboxes overloaded with requests from them.

Another place to go after is to actually talk to the askanim of the community in question. They can confirm the amount of support needed for Simchas.

It's really an unfortunate state of affairs.

↑ Ema of 5 ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 7:00 am

amother wrote:

Rabbi Eliezer been Dordaya. The story is on Avoda Zara 17a. It's kind of earthy.

Thank you, I couldn’t for the life of me remember. The two names going through my head were reish lakish and acher, and I knew it wasn’t either one.

amother

Powderblue ↓

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 7:00 am

I didnt have time to read the whole thread yet.
But this bothers me a lot. Lakewood rw. So when my girls became bas mitzva I did as big as I could within standards. We dont Iinvite classmates but neither do the boys. In a school with 8 parallel classes and lots of rearranging my daughter would want to invite 95 classmates former classmates and friends. So the schools dont let. But boys also.
So we made a really fancy in house party for her for family. Rented tablecloths and napkins. China and silverware. 3 course meal plus a homemade sweet table. She spoke, my husband and I spoke and some grandparents gave divrei bracha.
She made challa by herself with a few friends the day of her bas mitzva, and she said over a synopsis of hilchos hafrashas challa.
My husband learned with her in advance of her birthday significant portions of kitzur shulchan aruch- kashrus, brachos, shabbos, yom tov, ribbis, and a few others. And I learned sefer mishlei and tehillim with her.
No we didnt have a 300 person party but we showed her how important we view her new status.
Oh and we bought her a new dress and earrings and paid to have her hair done.
And after the event I made a photo book for her.
Tznius, special and I spent no more than $700 including the dress because I did the cooking myself and got most of the stuff at gemachs.

amother

↑ Aquamarine

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 7:05 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm another mother of girls and DH was adamantly against Bat Mitzva parties. I will say this - had we had sons, I don't think their parties would've been particularly fancy or over the top. In general, we favor a toned-down, simple approach. I might have done the cooking myself and made a simple affair in a shul, in any case.

I did mark my daughter's Bat Mitzva by taking them to choose a nice, expensive (for our budget) piece of jewelry, and they invited their cousins and friends to a Challah baking in our home, where they did the hafrasha and each guest took home her own homemade, delicious Challah.

BTW R' Moshe Feinstein, when asked about Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, said that if it was up to him he'd say to do neither.

My grandfather A"H told me that that was the case when he grew up. His father was OOT the day of his Bar Mitzvah. He was given an Aliyah, and after davening the Rav invited him to drink a L'Chaim with him.

But that's your Choice and what you did with your girls sound beautiful . and you did with your girls how you see for it's different then putting yourself in to debt for your boys and doing nothing for your girls Bec it not appropriate and wrong. I have friends who celebrated their boys beyond their means and didn't even acknowledge their girls bat mitzvah that to be is wrong.

↑ watergirl

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 7:06 am

leah233 wrote:

Who has more mitzvos? Dont know, never counted. We have different mitzvos. And seeing as gender was assigned by HKBH, and so were the mitzvos, it seems wrong to me that a boy deserves so much more (by some communities standards) just for being born a male. At that logic, better to celebrate at the age of 75 and see what the boy did with his obligations.

And lets not forget that these parties are new altogether. I’m pretty positive that boys 100 years ago also took on adult mitzvah obligations at their 13th birthday. Yet with maybe a lechaim and thats it. This stuff is all new. So lets not pretend that any of this has real religious meaning. Its all new.

You are welcome to make your boys bigger parties and smaller ones for the girls who you think have less mitzvos. But please dont do it in the name of Torah.

anon for this

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 7:11 am

leah233 wrote:

So do I. There is nothing about changing more diapers the day after a bas mitzvah

As I understand it, a bar or bat mitzvah is considered an halachic adult. Which means that every mitzvah he or she does is different, because the person doing it is fulfilling an adult obligation and not just performing the mitzvah for chinuch purposes.

Do you not believe this to be true?