Dating etiquette question.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 10:14 am

amother wrote:

Not sure why dan lkaf Zchus even comes into this.

Young lady came into her house in tears, and said "Ma - I'm so humiliated, the guy was a jerk - I told him I watch movies and he just turned around the car and drove me home" It so embarrassing to be returned home from a date 20 minutes after it started.

Ma calls the guys Aunt, tells her what happened, and she reports back: - oh he thought he did the right thing.. (which is a FACT we were provided with)..

So Ma says to her daughter... look you never need to speak to him again, but the truth of the matter is, he thought he did the right thing. He had no ill intent. He just lacks in Shidduch dating etiquette (and perhaps social skills in general).

Dan Lkaf Zchus is for when we need to fill in the details of what is going on in the person's head when they do something that is offensive... to give them the benefit of the doubt. there is no doubt here - we have someone who didn't read his copy of the 'shidduch dating handbook'.

I'm actually not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

I don't think we need to be dan lkaf zechus because we were given the facts of the story and told to give our opinion about the boys action. So what's what I did.

↑ treestump

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

I don't think it's just a lack of shidduch dating etiquette. I think it shows a complete lack of empathy. And that is something everyone absolutely needs in order to be a wife or husband. The ability to think about another person's emotions and feelings and act accordingly.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 10:27 am

treestump wrote:

This could be, or he could just be clueless about dating. An earlier poster mentioned that he probably thinks a date is like a business meeting--if you can see it's unproductive, you shake hands and leave.

It's hard to know where this is coming from without knowing the boy. The behavior is insulting either way, but the reasons for it may be more innocuous or more problematic.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 10:33 am

smileforamile wrote:

It's possible. In which case, OP can educate him about how girls (and their mothers) feel about this kind of action. He may not be hopeless - and can be taught some sensitivity and dating etiquette.

I would say something like this to the young man in question:

Though your Hashkafa is certainly valid and commendable, your actions were not appropriate. Consider the fact that when you take a young lady out on a date, she has likely put considerable time and effort into getting ready for the date, etc...you owe it to her to treat her like a lady, and give the date YOUR time and effort. You go out with her for a minimum of two hours, during which you make pleasant conversation and treat her with consideration and respect. If you feel she is not for you, you don't have to take her out again.

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 10:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

I like this.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ MagentaYenta

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 11:09 am

treestump wrote:

He lacks empathy and dating etiquette. My children all dated and were not part of the shidduch culture. Yea there were some dud dates but they all were polite and gracious. No one dumped anyone in the first twenty minutes regardless of movies or anything else. Some dates were a fizzle and never to be repeated, others a success that lead to long term relationships and marriage.

This is an issue of plain old common courtesy, something the boy did not learn at home.

amother

Lawngreen ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 11:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

I don't just like this. This is what I actually say to my sons before they start dating.

I wish mothers of girls also had a talk with their daughters before they let them go out on a date. It may be a result of the shidduch crisis hype, or the fact that girls just have different natures. Maybe it's because so many people think girls are more sensitive and guys are tough and have no feelings. But there are a lot of girls out there who desperately need dating etiquette lessons too.

True story- a friend whose oldest daughter started dating proudly told my husband what a mature smart dd he has. A boy picked her up and, brilliant girl that she is, in a second she had him sized up and didn't bother even trying to make conversation. He was bragging about how she hardly said a word, and she knows exactly what she wants.

In case there are any moms of girls reading this who wonder what boys' parents want for their sons, that would be a girl completely different than this one.

amother

↑ Periwinkle ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 11:14 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I suppose I'm agreeing with you on this point.

I disagree with you that he certainly humiliated her... and you raised the humiliation bit.

(humiliating: causing someone to feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect)

But I live in bizzaro world - and I didn't shidduch date (resumes, thorough vetting)... which I think is just a humiliating process all together.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 11:36 am

amother wrote:

Sounds like a girl with bad manners, or even a bit too full of herself. I totally agree that it goes both ways. I would discuss this with my daughter as well.

Truth is, I remember from my own dating days that I could often see pretty quickly if someone was definitely NOT for me (that doesn't mean every single guy. Just some of them.) I still made polite conversation and tried my best to treat the other person properly.

I would tell this father that his daughter risks the guy not setting her up with any of his friends. And telling the story over to others risks the Shadchanim skipping her over, too. Why bother setting a girl up if she might be rude to her date? The guy won't want to go out with anyone else that the Shadchan recommends.

amother

↑ Bisque ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 11:47 am

amother wrote:

I agree. My husband's biggest issue with dating was the expectation that the guy would completely take control of all aspects of the date, including conversation. If a girl can't be an active participant in a date, she is not ready to date. Have her work on whatever skills are missing, don't just send her along with the assumption that guys like to lead in every way. It's really unfair, and unattractive too.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 12:12 pm

amother wrote:

what is humiliating about hearing "I don't date people who go to movies"... the young lady chooses to go to movies. She must know there is a large segment of the frum population that doesn't.

The reason this is humiliating is because she is being judged entirely by this one action. Yes movies is a deal breaker for some. However, when a boy meets a girl, as soon as he notices something that is a deal breaker for him ( the way she dresses, height, not smart, etc.) should he just take her home? Even if he notices something that's a red flag, it's rude to take the girl home(or for the girl to ask to get taken home.) Elementary.

↑ zaq

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

(humiliating: causing someone to feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect)

But I live in bizzaro world - and I didn't shidduch date (resumes, thorough vetting)... which I think is just a humiliating process all together.

Yes, I think the system is humiliating all around. But I'm appalled that you lack the empathy to understand how humiliating it musy feel to be summarily rejected to your face within minutes of meeting someone, and then to pile insult on injury he immediately hauls you back home like a container of spoiled cottage cheese being returned to the store.

amother

↑ Azure

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 1:28 pm

amother wrote:

I actually like that he kept it perfunctory. I think if you are dating and it gets drawn out "just in case" the deal breakers don't matter long term, it can end up being very draining and unfair to both sides. The situation above is only humiliating if the girl felt humiliated. I personally wouldn't have felt humiliated in that situation. In fact, if I had a friend who didn't watch movies and was single, I'd introduce the two of them. I personally respect his decision that he had decided no and told her straight out. I view it as honest vs humiliating.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 1:38 pm

amother wrote:

Perhaps you wouldn't have been humiliated, that doesn't discount the fact that he did a terribly humiliating and socially inappropriate thing.

Let's say you pulled my pants down in public as a prank and I wasn't humiliated because I don't care if people seen me undressed. Does that mean your action was okay because I personally didn't get upset by your action?

Personally, it's apallaing to me that there were any, let alone AFEW!! People on this thread who saw nothing wrong with this boys behavior. What has this world come to???!

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 2:57 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Yes, this boy was very rude to his date. I'm sure many of us have been on dates that we knew were DOA, but we didn't just run away, we stuck it out to be polite.
Not sure why this is making people defensive.

Apparently there are a lot of socially inept people on this site. Either that, or they're just plain mean.

amother

↑ Blue

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 3:09 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Many people, myself included, did not say that there is nothing wrong with this boy's behavior. I agree with you that it was wrong. I'm just saying that it doesn't automatically make him a nasty human being who is lacking empathy. It could be coming from that, but it could also be coming from other things.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

I would hardly consider spending 2 hours in a young lady's company, making polite conversation, to be drawn out dating "just in case".

I consider it giving other people consideration and the time of day. The young lady took time to prepare herself for a date - get dressed, hair, makeup, etc... - and you young man take the time to treat her like a mentch.

amother

↑ Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 28 2017, 3:45 pm

Chayalle wrote:

So exactly true Chayalle.

I'm surprised at the women sounding supportive or apologetic of this inconsiderate young man. I can't tell where that's coming from. I wonder if it's a backlash from boys' mothers who are sick and tired of being treated like the villains in all this.
My post obviously came from a mother of boys. It didn't excuse the horrible behavior the OP told us about, but asked if girls could also be asked to behave themselves. It's not very popular around here.

Like Chayalle said, we have to ask the young man to act like a mentch. There's nothing wrong with asking the young lady to act like a mentch too even though she's female.