Ferguson murder began by victim walking in gutter? Wo!

↑ causemommysaid

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 11:31 am

marina wrote:

Oh, I see. You just want the black people in Ferguson to be ashamed of the other black people in Ferguson who are looting and rioting. Ok.

Anyway, I live in Cleveland. There are some crazy violent white people here in Cleveland, let me tell you. Would you like me to be ashamed of them? I mean - we have the same color skin and we live in the same town!

yes, I think people should be ashamed of how their own community responds. The Ferguson community failed big time and they are responsible.

people who bend over backwards to justify their behavior only make things worse. Being poor and angry doesn't give you a right to riot and loot.

The first step in fixing any community problem is to accept responsibility whether its Jews, African Americans, Muslims, etc.

That being said I still think racial profiling is wrong and police are way to quick to pull out their guns.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:01 pm

DrMom wrote:

Marina, I am not sure what you are trying to say. The anti-enlistment riots certainly did reflect badly on haredim.

And -- fairly or not -- poor behavior by Jews of any type certainly does reflect poorly on all Jews. That's the whole concept of chilul HaShem.

I think that I shouldn't have to answer the bad behavior of all orthodox Jews, or all Russians, or all lawyers or all people living in my town or all women living in my town who share my skin color.

And the same way, all blacks in Ferguson shouldn't have to answer for the conduct of some blacks in ferguson.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:03 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Was trying to put these thoughts to words myself. Very well said. I get very mad when Jews behave in appropriately. They make all Jews look bad when in reality I couldn't be more far removed from crazy , violent people who protest.

So is that ok? You're good with people lumping you in with the crazies? Like you're doing now to ALL blacks who happen to live in this town?

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:09 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

First of all, Its shameful and beyond unacceptable that jews behave that way. I do want to point out a few differences:

1. The orthodox that were standing in the street, blocking traffic and lighting garbage cans on fire, were NOT looting stores. We do not see them smashing storefronts and running out with stolen goods. It certainly doesn't justify their behavior but its not as bad.

2. The orthodox jews were protesting an issue-the army draft- that is of legitimate concern and has a direct impact on their families. The blacks protesting in Ferguson couldn't care less about Michael Brown or their fellow black citizens. 93% of black that r murdered in this country r killed by blacks. Any rally's or protests? how about the fact that over 70% of black babies r born to teenage unwed mothers. Anybody screaming about that? A black man is shot by a police officer (possibly within the law) and there r riots and looting and this tremendous show of support for their fellow citizens. I'll end with this: Since August 9, the day Michael Brown was killed, approximately 2000 blacks have been murdered by other blacks. Do u think any of those protesters can name even one? I don't.

Honey, do you not understand that when a government agent ends the life of a human being it is infinitely more concerning that when another citizen ends that life?

And your ridiculous assertion that the blacks don't care about their fellow citizens? Are you really not aware of how the Ferguson decision affects all black families in this country? Can anyone really be that insulated?

Here, get an education: http://johnson-mccormick.com/2.....-ten/

And yes, of course, orthodox people burning trashcans, destroying property, is WAY WAY better than looting, which is stealing property. FOR SURE MAMA.

↑ the world's best mom ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:13 pm

marina wrote:

So is that ok? You're good with people lumping you in with the crazies? Like you're doing now to ALL blacks who happen to live in this town?

Nobody is saying all blacks are horrible because some do crimes. However, based on the percentage that do crimes, we can appreciate the good guys while also retaining a certain amount of caution until we know they are not criminals.

However, there is a lot less Jewish crime per thousand Jewish people than there is black crime per thousand blacks. Perhaps that's precisely why the Jewish crimes get so much media coverage. We certainly should not be ashamed of being Jewish because of the occasional crimes- though we should be utterly chagrined and dismayed when the crimes happen- just as blacks should not be ashamed of being black just because many others do crimes. They should, however, understand where racial profiling is coming from because it's not based on nonsense.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:14 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Southernbubby and Naomi, I think you both have good points.
By and large, when I think of African Americans, I think of the many fine people I see in my community. Kids who hold the door open for me at the library, families I see in the grocery store where the parents are kind and gentle to their fairly well-behaved kids, even if going shopping at the end of a long day. And I know that not too many miles away from me are seriously depressed and dangerous areas, where kids aren't going to high school and the cards are stacked against breaking out of some horrible cycles and I don't judge these people, I have compassion. (BTW, is it PC to hold up Ben Carson or Thomas Sowell, etc. as role models? Wink

)

However, when we have a tragedy, we respond with the kol Yaakov. Or take this story: someone buys tefillin, he hadn't laid them since bar mitzvah, but decided to start doing it again because these kedoshim will no longer be able to. As I said elsewhere, our response is to fill the void. Where are the voices to start doing that? To graduate high school and make something of yourself now that Michael Brown no longer has that opportunity? What in heaven's name is the point of torching not just businesses but businesses in your own community, owned by the same people who are perceived to have been so wronged? Scratching Head

I think I can still legitimately ask that question even while some bad actors among my own folk are making a chillul Hashem.

And it's sad that they are. It just means that the rest of us have to double up on living in a way that makes the shem Shamayim misaheiv. Even if people have their blinders on and don't see it, we will be creating positive energy in the world. Anyone up to joining me?

May I recommend you google constructive responses to Ferguson before posting this assumption that NO ONE is doing or advocating anything? I'm sure you don't really think that no people anywhere are doing anything but encouraging looters.

Last edited by marina on Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:16 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

I will NOT accept responsibility for all people of my race/religion/gender/profession/ethnicity who live in my town who do stupid and violent things. I would spend my day apologizing 24/7. Do you not understand that?

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:18 pm

[quote="mommy2b2c"]What does your post have to do with a boy being shot because he assaulted a police officer?[/quote

Nothing, I was responding to Marina whose posts also had nothing to do with a boy being shot because he assaulted a police officer.

At least you had the decency to attack me openly instead of anonymously so at least I have to thank you for that. Otherwise, it does seem rude.

Last edited by southernbubby on Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:20 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

Lol. You do know that there are plenty of non Jewish (and Jewish) people who categorically refuse to do business with frum people because they "retain a certain amount of caution" because of the unethical ways some Jews conduct business? Yes, you know this?

How do you feel about this stereotyping? You good with it? It's okay by you that your father, your uncle, your husband, your son is seen by others as maybe a greedy unethical scumbag?

Well, see, nobody is saying all Jews are horrible because some commit financial crimes, lol, we are just retaining a certain amount of caution until we know that they are not criminals. And if that means I buy my merchandise from elsewhere, eh, so be it.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:25 pm

marina wrote:

So is that ok? You're good with people lumping you in with the crazies? Like you're doing now to ALL blacks who happen to live in this town?

I lumped all blacks in one town together? I said that I get upset when people associate me with crazies because I am not like them. I can therefore understand why members of the black community in ferguson who are good law abiding citizens would get upset if they are lumped in with all the rioters. That still has nothing to do with the op, who insinuated that a boy got shot for walking in the street, while in fact, he got shot for assaulting a police officer.

Last edited by mommy3b2c on Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:27 pm

marina wrote:

While I agree with you that we don't have to apologize for everything stupid, violent or illegal that a Jewish person does, on some level, doesn't the leadership of our communities need to address these stupid, violent, and illegal things so that at least it doesn't look like we all go around advocating it?
Don't you imagine that loads of black ministers in churches all over America this morning are exhorting their follower to pursue peace and forgiveness? I would imagine that most black leaders are against looting and destruction and preach as such. They usually advocate peaceful resolutions of these types of conflict.

↑ moonstone

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 12:36 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

why does the fact that orthodox Jews are doing something wrong in Israel justify the looting and riots in Ferguson?

why are you making a connection that is not there?

Jews shouldn't riot in Israel. Blacks shouldn't riot in Ferguson.

If I were an orthodox Jew living in Israel I would be ashamed of my communities behavior as should a black person living in Ferguson.

Took the words right out of my mouth. What does one incidence of bad behavior have to do with the other? Yes, I'm ashamed of those Jews even though the only thing we have in common is that we are both have "jewish" on our teudat zehut (id). So now am I allowed to think that blacks in Ferguson should be ashamed that too many in their community are using the whole Michael brown incident as an excuse to steal TV s? I didn't say I'd feel RESPONSIBLE for the criminal behavior of my neighbors if I was from Ferguson, just that I'd feel shame. What's so radical about that? Looking through the rest of this thread, I see that marina is galloping around on her high horse, desperate to find racism even where none exists.

I really don't get why you brought Jews into this discussion, marina. Turned the thread down a really stupid and irrelevant path.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 1:40 pm

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/The-F......html

This clip tries to use the riots as a springboard for self analysis. We could all use the lessons of the riots and apply them to ourselves as individuals and collectively. This guy talks about the disconnect between the sadness and horror of a teenage boy being shot and the killer exonerated and the pillage, looting and theft that occurred. We also compartmentalize different parts of our behavior. Collectively, on the one hand, we are all about Torah learning, tzedukah and chessed and on the other hand, some things that we do have caused chillul Hashem. On a personal level, we believe in tzedukah, chessed, and ahavas Yisroel and often behave the opposite way to those we are supposed to care about and love.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 1:42 pm

moonstone wrote:

I am really interested in Marina's contributions to this discussion but I was originally the one blamed for the direction the thread took.

↑ gold21 ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 1:45 pm

Anyway, there is a similarity between poverty-stricken ultra-chareidim in Israel and poverty-stricken minority areas in the U.S. Ya. Both groups fail to emphasize the value of a good education in breaking the cycle of poverty and frustration with one's circumstances. Rioting changes nothing, Ferguson. Violence isn't power. Education and opportunity is power.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 1:47 pm

gold21 wrote:

Good start but there is way more to it than that. Part of it is a rationalization of entitlement.

↑ the world's best mom

Sun, Nov 30 2014, 1:52 pm

marina wrote:

To say I am dishonest because there are some dishonest Jews would be ridiculous. To call some references and ask about my honesty to ensure I am not from that background would be understandable, though I would know it's unnecessary because in my community, that dishonesty does not exist. I can be innocent unless proven guilty even if you will check into my history just to make sure. The same should be okay with African Americans.

I would like to know how many dishonest Jews there are in each thousand (based on a random sample of Jews from all types of Jewish communities), in comparison with how many black criminals there are in each thousand. I would think there is a major difference in the numbers. However, antisemitism is in vogue, while racial profiling is illegal. Go figure.