burying shomer Shabbos/non-shomer Shabbos separately

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 9:35 pm

Marney wrote:

This thread is made up of the opinions and feelings we have on the subject.

Would you think it would be okay for women on a frum forum to express negative opinions about family purity laws and customs?

Quote:

Most anyone can find a quote in the Shulchan Orach on a topic.

Really?

Quote:

It often takes more than just the source from the Shulcahn Orach for a rav to paskin on a delicate matter.

True

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other times there are different valid interpretations of the passage that leave room for different outcomesw depending on the situation and the person asking.

The problem here is that a certain approach is being denigrated. Denigrating it means that the rabbis, communities, chevra kadisha involved with those cemeteries are being denigrated.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 2:17 am

I think the main problem here, why people are finding it so emotionally difficult to accept that someone who is mechalel Shabbos be'farhesya (public Shabbos desecrator) is so bad is that they are confusing right/wrong with judging. It is not the same thing at all.

A Mechalel Shabbos be'farhesya is put to death by the Sanhedrin. (with witnesses and a warning) It is considered a terrible thing by the Torah to break Shabbos.

But when someone comes to be judged, after 120 years in this world, all the circumstances are taken into account. It could be that X who didn't say a brocho with enough kavanna is given a heavier punishment than Y who broke Shabbos. Maybe X grew up in a frum home and had all the spiritual advantages possible, while Y didn't. Hashem takes into account whether an aveira was done deliberately, carelessly or under duress. How much the person knew and if he had the opportunity to learn etc etc. That is a judgement which a human being cannot possibly make, because they don't have all the information.

It also doesn't affect our Ahavas Yisroel. A person loves their brother even if they don't behave properly.

But I think this shock at a differentiation being made between Shomer and non-Shomer Shabbos Jews shows a lack of sensitivity for the importance of Shabbos. Would people want to be buried next to a murderer? A child molester? An armed robber? And that's even without understanding the tza'ar which it causes the neshoma. Even if the murderer had a bad childhood and never had a good example to learn from? Even if the child molester was born with psychological problems which he didn't have the opportunity to treat? Even if the armed robber had never been given an education and thought that was the only way to earn a living?

We have a problem because our emotional sensitivity to what is right and wrong is influenced by non-Jewish/secular society which says adultery is wrong (at least in theory) and someone being with his wife who is nidda is nothing. That murder is terrible (ditto) but breaking Shabbos is no big deal. That armed robbery is a punishable offence but gezel sheina (stealing someone's sleep) is an everyday occurence.

↑ gryp

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 10:32 am

Quote:

But I think this shock at a differentiation being made between Shomer and non-Shomer Shabbos Jews shows a lack of sensitivity for the importance of Shabbos. Would people want to be buried next to a murderer? A child molester? An armed robber? And that's even without understanding the tza'ar which it causes the neshoma. Even if the murderer had a bad childhood and never had a good example to learn from? Even if the child molester was born with psychological problems which he didn't have the opportunity to treat? Even if the armed robber had never been given an education and thought that was the only way to earn a living?

We have a problem because our emotional sensitivity to what is right and wrong is influenced by non-Jewish/secular society which says adultery is wrong (at least in theory) and someone being with his wife who is nidda is nothing. That murder is terrible (ditto) but breaking Shabbos is no big deal. That armed robbery is a punishable offence but gezel sheina (stealing someone's sleep) is an everyday occurence.

great analogy and explanation! Thumbs Up

↑ ShiraMiri ↓

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 11:27 am

sarahd wrote:

ditto.

I also wanted to add that halacha often requires us to judge a situation based on what our eyes see, not what may be going on in a person's heart, which of course only Hashem knows for sure.

I think the thing that bothers me about judging only based on what our eyes can see, is that in so many instances we are taught that it is WRONG to base opinions solely on what our eyes can see. When it comes to being dan lchaf zchus we are taught never to completely trust our eyes or ears when judging someone because we can jump to the wrong conclusions.

And yes - nowadays with the help of technology almost anyone can look up a passage in the Shulchan Aruch. That doesn't mean we necessarily understand it.

e.g.

http://www.jewishsoftware.com/.....d=136

My husband can easily look up the source in the Shulchan Aruch for most shailahs we have thanks to his many years in yeshiva - however, as he is not a rav - he doesn't paskin shailahs for our family or anyone else! He may look at the source out of interest - but he knows that arriving at a decision takes more than just knowing the source.

↑ mali ↓

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 12:32 pm

Marney wrote:

sarahd wrote:

ditto.

I also wanted to add that halacha often requires us to judge a situation based on what our eyes see, not what may be going on in a person's heart, which of course only Hashem knows for sure.

Sarahd isn't telling you not to judge favorably. In day-to-day life, we can try to understand, but when it comes to Halacha, it's clear-cut. For example, you can have a very good friend who's not Shomer Shabbos. You can understand her, and know that she means well etc. etc. However, she may not pour wine for you. Because when Halacha comes into the picture, it's not our hearts that rule, it's the Shulchan Aruch.
It's very good to be a believer, but Judaism requires action as well.

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 4:56 pm

Sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking this to death but...

Motek: You said that the S. Aruch says that people should be buried near those of a similar level. The issue is (1) that being Shomer Shabbos in public is only one measure of one's level of frumkeit (and I can imagine that a neshama could be distressed at proximity to an apparently Shomer Shabbos theif, murderer, child molester, etc.), and (2) there is a concern that the very process of determining who was in fact Shomer Shabbos can be problematic, since it can be impossible to know all of the factors behind an apparent breach of Shabbos and since the investigation into whether someone was Shomer Shabbos carries with it a certain risk of loshon hara, as it can be so difficult to maintain perfectly pure motives when discussing someone else. That, in a nutshell, is the problem with "judging".

Mummyof6: You had said that public observance of Shabbos was SO important because violating Shabbos in public was like a person declaring that Hashem did not create the universe. However, you later responded to me by saying that the reason for non-observance didn't matter. So, which is it? I'm not saying that Shabbos violation is okay, but you cannot say that all Shabbos violators are denying Hashem in today's world, where so many don't have any idea at all of what Shabbos observance entails and therefore you can't simply assume that this is the intention behind the lack of Shabbos observance.

↑ shalhevet

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 7:18 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

Mummyof6: You had said that public observance of Shabbos was SO important because violating Shabbos in public was like a person declaring that Hashem did not create the universe. However, you later responded to me by saying that the reason for non-observance didn't matter. So, which is it? I'm not saying that Shabbos violation is okay, but you cannot say that all Shabbos violators are denying Hashem in today's world, where so many don't have any idea at all of what Shabbos observance entails and therefore you can't simply assume that this is the intention behind the lack of Shabbos observance.

Quote:

ושמרו בני ישראל את השבת לעשות את השבת לדורותם ברית עולם ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעולם כי ששת ימים עשה ד את השמים ואת הארץ ואת כל אשר בם וינח ביום השביעי

When we say these words from the Torah in Kiddush every Shabbos we say:
And the Children of Israel shall keep Shabbos, to observe the Shabbos throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. It is an everlasting sign between Me and the Children of Israel that Hashem created the heavens and earth and all that they contain, in 6 days, and on the seventh day He rested.

I.e. the Torah tells us that keeping Shabbos is the sign that a Jew acknowledges that Hashem created the world. That is an objective fact, even if a person who, unfortunately, doesn't keep Shabbos doesn't know it.In other words it is irrespective of the person's intentions.

Imagine someone needed the bathroom and all the toilet paper was finished. He finds a piece of cloth on the floor and rips it up to use. He comes out of the bathroom to find police waiting for him. "Do you have no respect for your country's flag? How dare you use the flag in such a way?" It will not help him that he didn't know it was a flag/ he didn't notice what was on the other side / no-one ever explained that tearing up a flag is interpreted as disrespect to the country.
Again, someone breaking Shabbos shows he doesn't believe that Hashem created the world, even if he has no idea of the significance. (But, as I mentioned before Hashem is not like a human court and takes all the circumstances into consideration.)

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 12:12 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

ושמרו בני ישראל את השבת לעשות את השבת לדורותם ברית עולם ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעולם כי ששת ימים עשה ד את השמים ואת הארץ ואת כל אשר בם וינח ביום השביעי

When we say these words from the Torah in Kiddush every Shabbos we say:
And the Children of Israel shall keep Shabbos, to observe the Shabbos throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. It is an everlasting sign between Me and the Children of Israel that Hashem created the heavens and earth and all that they contain, in 6 days, and on the seventh day He rested.

I.e. the Torah tells us that keeping Shabbos is the sign that a Jew acknowledges that Hashem created the world. That is an objective fact, even if a person who, unfortunately, doesn't keep Shabbos doesn't know it.In other words it is irrespective of the person's intentions.

I am not arguing against your point that Shabbos is a covenant.

I am arguing that failure to properly observe Shabbos is necessarily an expression that one doesn't believe in Hashem as creator.

Quote:

Imagine someone needed the bathroom and all the toilet paper was finished. He finds a piece of cloth on the floor and rips it up to use. He comes out of the bathroom to find police waiting for him. "Do you have no respect for your country's flag? How dare you use the flag in such a way?" It will not help him that he didn't know it was a flag/ he didn't notice what was on the other side / no-one ever explained that tearing up a flag is interpreted as disrespect to the country.

Sorry, but I'm LOL here. Aside from the absurdity of the example (why would there be a flag on the bathroom floor, and what sort of oppressive police state is this that they've apparently got hidden cameras in bathroom stalls and can send out cops in a seconds to respond to flag desecration?), I'm a lawyer and can tell you that your example is not legally correct and intention is a necessary component of any crime (except if we're talking about oppressive police states - but I don't think that's the analogy you want to make).

Quote:

Again, someone breaking Shabbos shows he doesn't believe that Hashem created the world, even if he has no idea of the significance. (But, as I mentioned before Hashem is not like a human court and takes all the circumstances into consideration.)

Unless you've actually interviewed every Shabbos violator, you have no idea what they believe.

Quick example here: Approx. 89% of American Jews are not Orthodox. Most would violate Shabbos in some way, as a result of not knowing Orthodox halachic standards. However, all of these Jews are not totally secular. Some other movements DO teach that Hashem is the creator, and that's what these Jews believe.[/quote]

Last edited by JRKmommy on Thu, Sep 21 2006, 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 3:55 pm

JRKmommy wrote:

Is "regularly and publicly violates the Shabbos" the standard that is used to decide that someone is not Shomer Shabbos? I'm asking this as an honest question, since I don't have real-life experience with this sort of division in burial.

This would not only affect burial but other areas of Jewish life, like who can be a witness, for a wedding for example, or as mentioned, whether they can touch your wine. It is the gold standard in halacha. Another example, in giving hashgachos to restaurants, whether the owner is a Shomer Shabbos or not makes a big difference.

What other way would you suggest that someone be categorized as shomer Shabbos, other than what people see them do regularly?

And of course there is a difference between someone raised Orthodox or who otherwise was taught about Shabbos and who does not keep it, and someone who is a tinok sh'nishba, in how he is regarded in heaven but I think that regardless of the reason they cannot be a witness, can't touch the wine. I don't know about burial.

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 4:11 pm

My question regarding what people regularly and publicly do was this - being Shomer Shabbos means ALWAYS keeping Shabbos, so would someone be assumed to not be Shomer Shabbos if they ever slipped, or just if they "regularly and publicly" slipped. I was specifically thinking that there could be instances where an apparent Shabbos violation was observed, but in reality there may have been some unknown, legitimate explanation (eg. someone may see my dh use a cell phone on Shabbos, not realizing that he gets the occasional page from the hospital in cases of pikuach nefesh involving his patients).

I also have no argument with the part about non-Shomer Shabbos Jews being witnesses, etc. It makes a certain amount of sense to use it as a qualification - we can presume that someone who is Shomer Shabbos has the knowledge and yiras shomayim to realize the importance of telling the truth and dire consequences of lying.

My objection was to the assertion that someone who is not Shomer Shabbos is NECESSARILY saying that they do not believe in Hashem as creator.

[Shana tova, btw, since this will be my last post until after Rosh Hashana.]

↑ Ruchel ↓

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 4:13 pm

Bury me near people who openly never kept shabbes but were only hurting themselves (maybe even unknowingly), but what would really distress my neshama would be to be buried near a faker who kept shabbes in public but hated the mitsvos and was too coward to go off the derech, or a "frum" child molestor.

Bury me near people who were raised non observant and don't know better, but please not near someone who knew enough to twist all the rules to his liking and always be "on the right side" while never having the right attitude.

Only G-d knows who is really frum or good, so let's not take his place.

Last thing, what do we do about different customs? In Paris, some accept the eruv, some don't. Basically, if your family was there in the 20's or before, your tradition is to accept it -> a huge majority of the Jews, the North Africans, don't accept it - although some have decided to accept it, while some Ashkenazim have decided to go with the majority.
Do we bury the European frum Jews in the non frum section or the frum?

↑ mali ↓

Thu, Sep 21 2006, 6:51 pm

Ruchel:
1) Why not asked to be buried near someone who sincerely kept the Mitzvot?
2) Why do you automatically associate being observant with all those negative things you wrote?

you wrote:

Only G-d knows who is really frum or good, so let's not take his place.

So why are YOU taking His place? He gave us visible signs and physical actions that a Jew must observe. Why are you trying to substitute these with (perhaps supposedly) sincere feelings? One who is sincere with Yiddishkeit keeps the Mitzvot, and doesn't excuse himself by saying that he's a Jew at heart. (I'm not talking about those who didn't know better, but usually those don't know Jewish burial customs either).
And don't worry about different customs. After all, most people are buried together with the rest of the people from their communities.