burying shomer Shabbos/non-shomer Shabbos separately

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Burying shomer Shabbos/non-shomer Shabbos separately

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ny21 ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 12:27 am

I just got back from a funeral . Crying

(Not my family)
At this cemetery the people who were "shomer shabbos"
were burried in a seperate section than jews who were not
"shomer shabbos " by chance I noticed the person who was burried

parents were not burried together . The mother was shommer

shabbos and the father was not .

The father was burried in one section and the mother was burried
in another section .I feel they should be burried near each other - regardless .

su7kids

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 12:29 am

I may be wrong, but in the Orthodox, we don't bury men and women together.

↑ ny21 ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 12:35 am

this cemetary was not orthodox .

sadly a few years ago a couple died in an accident

and they were burried side by side .

healthymama ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 1:33 am

this is an interesting thread.

Last edited by healthymama on Thu, Sep 21 2006, 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 2:23 am

Keeping Shabbos is declaring that Hashem created the world, and is the Covenant between Hashem and the Jewish people. In Halacha there is no distinction between Orthodox/Reform/Conservative etc; only between those who are Shomer Shabbos and those who are not.

The Chofetz Chaim gave a parable of a storekeeper. As long as his sign is on the door of the store, even if the store is closed, you know he is still in business. But if he takes down the sign you know the store no longer functions. Similarly a Jew's "sign" with Hashem is Shabbos. As long as he is Shomer Shabbos he still considers himself a Jew, even if he is lax in other things.

Maybe someone else knows more details, but I think being buried near to someone who was not Shomer Shabbos causes anguish to the neshomo of a person who was.
If someone wants to be buried in a Shomer Shabbos Beis Olam (cemetry)- let him keep Shabbos during his life.

aussiegal

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 3:21 am

I'm quite sure that on har hamenuchos men and women are buried next to each other.

Ruchel ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 5:15 am

healthymama wrote:

why are men and women not buried together ? I never heard about this.

Same here. I have never heard of a frum/frei separation either and I find it very repulsive.

I think only G-d can measure someone's frumkeit, we can only see his appearant observance, not what he is really. And even then, we can see what he does outside of his house - I know people who are shomer shabbos outside but not inside. what about those who sometimes keep sometimes not, those who went through "phases" during their life, those who didn't have the chance to learn our religion, those who keep without believing because it looks good or they are afraid of people's reactions, what about those who are not shomer shabbes in vacation.......

mummy-bh

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 5:39 am

I don't think I ever heard of the shomer shabbos/not shomer shabbos separation, but I have heard that a man and his wife are not meant to be buried next to each other. Something about in case they possibly did not keep taharas hamishpacha properly, they shouldn't lie next to each other for all eternity. Not sure exactly, I can ask my husband for more details.

brooklyn

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 8:08 am

Husband and wifes are buried next to each other in frum cemeteries. They just alternate it. It would be man, woman,woman, man, man, woman, woman.......... In this way couples are buried together, yet no other man is next to a woman. That is how they do it at Har Hamenuchot.

Also I don't feel it is up yo us to judge the level of someone's religion, that is up to hashem.

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 9:42 am

I know of cemetaries where shomer shabbat are seperate from non-shomer shabbat. In those cemetaries, couples are buried together. I am not sure would happen when one spouse is observant and one isn't...

chocolate moose ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 9:51 am

I know in Lub. it's all separate. Shomer shbos and not, men and women, etc. Like 4 diffrent cemeteries.

↑ ny21 ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:12 am

I have heard that in Isreal some cemetarys the men and the women

are burried seperatly in differant sections

ShiraMiri ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:18 am

I am not sure what they do in Israel, but where I live men and women are buried together. A few years ago some in the community petitioned to start a shomer shabbos section. I think it isn't right. I can't believe a family would be separated in a cemetary! And why in the world can't men and women be buried side by side. I think the risk of negiah is over with! Bizarre.......

MommyLuv

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:24 am

ditto marney!

it makes me so sad to think that I couldnt be buried near my DH-may we both live long years...

↑ chocolate moose

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:29 am

Not everything is meant to be done "together". That's why childbirth with DH outside does not faze me in the slightest.

↑ ShiraMiri ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:30 am

The other issue that was brought up at the time of the proposed shomer shabbos section was - why is shomer shabbos the only determining factor in frumkeit? There are plenty of folks who are shomer shabbos but over on many other aveiros - yet they would get to be buried in the "exclusive" frum section while other people with much better middos, who were never taught about keeping shabbos, are in the frei section? Why is that fair? Better not to make any separations and let Hashem be the judge.

↑ ShiraMiri ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:32 am

SaraG wrote:

Not everything is meant to be done "together". That's why childbirth with DH outside does not faze me in the slightest.

Hee hee. Funny, I asked DH if he only attended the births of our children for me or for himself? He said both. Never in a million years would he have wanted to miss the births of our kids. Every couple is different - but we believe childbirth is an experience for both parents to be a part of.

Motek ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:36 am

Maybe we should find out what halacha and custom are before we knock it?

I found this:

Quote:

Some cemeteries have sections reserved for those who were shomer Shabbat. The halacha states ( Shulcha Aruch, Yo're De'ah) that one should be buried in an area with others who were of similar religious observance.

And yes, whether a Jew is a "shomer Shabbos" is a major criterion as mummyof6 explained with the C.C.'s mashal.

↑ ShiraMiri ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 11:39 am

For sure being shomer shabbos is a major criterion. Certainly not the only one. I suppose it is merely a public one that other folks can judge by.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 12:27 pm

MommyLuv wrote:

ditto marney!

it makes me so sad to think that I couldnt be buried near my DH-may we both live long years...

ditto Mommyluv and Marney.

I have to say I'm happy that families are not separated in the cemetary where my family is... It is something that one person is buried in France for example and the spouse made alia and is buried in Israel, but being in the same town, in the same cemetary, but not together? Too sad... Sad

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