burying shomer Shabbos/non-shomer Shabbos separately

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

Burying shomer Shabbos/non-shomer Shabbos separately

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↑ Ruchel ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 12:28 pm

Marney wrote:

The other issue that was brought up at the time of the proposed shomer shabbos section was - why is shomer shabbos the only determining factor in frumkeit? There are plenty of folks who are shomer shabbos but over on many other aveiros - yet they would get to be buried in the "exclusive" frum section while other people with much better middos, who were never taught about keeping shabbos, are in the frei section? Why is that fair? Better not to make any separations and let Hashem be the judge.

Yes... and believe me, unfortunately I can think of many, many examples...

faigie

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 2:57 pm

we all burned in the smokestacks together.
nuff said.

JRKmommy ↓

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 3:30 pm

Totally agree with Marney, Ruchel, faige, etc.

How well could anyone really judge the religious level of another Jew? I have had experiences of being completely shocked by people - only Hashem knows all.

As well, how do you even determine if someone was shomer Shabbos? How nasty would it be to have gossip going around "Was Shoimie really Shomer Shabbos? Well...he always showed up at shul, but I remember being there one Shabbos and not seeing ripped toilet paper in the washroom..." I imagine there'd be distress to the neshamos over that sort of thing!

As for the sexes - my great-grandparents (who were Orthodox) are buried together in Montreal.

Ambassador-to-KJ

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 4:33 pm

Quote:

this cemetary was not orthodox

Momoftwins, so why would they seperate by shomer shabbos and not if its not orthodoz to begin with? Scratching Head

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sat, Sep 16 2006, 3:47 pm

For all you people who think dividing up Shomer-Shabbos from not is so terrible, why don't you have compassion for the neshamas of people who were frum and have tza'ar by being buried with people who moreless removed themselves from Klal Yisroel by not keeping Shabbos.

I should have explained previously that the halachic criteria for when we consider someone a Shomer Shabbos is that he's a Shomer Shabbos b'Farhesya I.e. in public - firstly we wouldn't know how he behaves in private and secondly in public is considered worse because he publicly declares that he doesn't believe Hashem created the world, ch"v.

supermom

Sat, Sep 16 2006, 4:27 pm

SaraG wrote:

I know in Lub. it's all separate. Shomer shbos and not, men and women, etc. Like 4 diffrent cemeteries.

Am I missing something? I have seen men and woman buried together.

↑ healthymama ↓

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 12:57 pm

I have to think more about this. Perhaps.

Last edited by healthymama on Thu, Sep 21 2006, 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ ny21 ↓

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 2:35 pm

Marney wrote:

the original title to this subj ect was " how do you measure someones frumkeit?
the mod changed it ! Crying

the point you describe here Marney is the point that I wanted to make!

↑ JRKmommy ↓

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 10:08 am

mummyof6 wrote:

For starters, nowadays it's really not possible to know WHY someone isn't Shomer Shabbos. What percentage of Jews have even had the education that would allow them to know what being Shomer Shabbos entails? Because of this lack of knowledge, it's really not possible to impute such a negative intention as deliberately declaring in public that one doesn't believe that Hashem created the world, or removing themselves from klal yisrael.

Secondly, I imagine that there would also be great distress to a neshama buried next to someone who pretended in public to be shomer shabbos but actually committed great aveiros. I imagine that someone's true nature would not be hidden after they were niftar.

Thirdly, I imagine that the possibility of lashon hara would be incredibly distressing as well, and that is what could result from having to judge the observance of those who had passed.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 10:24 am

JRKmommy wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

No-one is judging WHY someone was mechalel Shabbos. That is only for Hashem. The halacha works according to facts. There are other halachos, such as not drinking wine touched by someone who is mechalel Shabbos, and not relying on them for other matters in halacha. This is not a value judgement as to if they are responsible fully/partially/ not at all for not keeping Shabbos.

Quote:

Secondly, I imagine that there would also be great distress to a neshama buried next to someone who pretended in public to be shomer shabbos but actually committed great aveiros. I imagine that someone's true nature would not be hidden after they were niftar.

Really in halacha a person should be buried next to people on a similar level to them spiritually. There are certainly plots for great tzaddikim. The problem is how you are going to do this practically - even without the things people don't know about. You are absolutely right, but I guess this distinction is the best that can practically be done.

Quote:

Thirdly, I imagine that the possibility of lashon hara would be incredibly distressing as well, and that is what could result from having to judge the observance of those who had passed.

Have you studied the laws of lashon hara? If the talk is for to'eles (benefit) it is not loshon horo. I can't think of many things which bring more benefit than to allow neshomos not to be in tza'ar.

edited for a typo: halacha not melacha

Last edited by shalhevet on Tue, Sep 19 2006, 5:34 am; edited 2 times in total

rainbow baby ↓

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 2:59 pm

Okey as far as I see it, it is not up to us to decide if a person is Shomer Shabbos or not. We are not the bosses here. We should nnot judge a person and expecially after a person has died we definately should not judge them. Who is to say that the person who did not keep Shabbos did not give a lot of Tzadakah. While the person who did keep Shabbos never gave a penny. If really is not up to us to judge people.

This brings to mind a story I heard recently. I'am not sure when it was set or where, maybe someone can help me out. But here is the a summery of it. There was an old man who everyone thought was a miser. People went to him to ask for Tzaddakah and he would give nothing. He had no friends and no one talked to him. Anyway he became ill and died. At him Lavayah they just about got 10 men and they buried this terrible miser at the edge of the cemetry near no one else. After a week the local people where not getting payed for their work, the people that learned never got their money throught their door before Shabbos, everyone was in a right state. Then again the next week no one got any money. They went to the Rov of the town and where begging him for answers. (I think the story went something like this, sorry if I get it slightly wrong.) Anyway another man came forward and said you had spent all this time making fun and calling this man a miser, well he used to support you and it was me that used to give the money out but he told me not to tell anyone untill he had died. On hearing this news the Rov said that I want to be buried next to such a Tzadik.

As we can see from this story yes we might think someone is Shomer Shabbos but maybe they were not behind closed doors. We really should not judge other people, the only people we should juge are ourselves especially at this time of the year.

↑ rainbow baby ↓

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 3:02 pm

In the UK well at least the cemetries I have been to in Manchester, Sunderland and Liverpool they bury MAN MAN WOMEN WOMEN MAN MAN, etc.... They are all Orthadox cemetries as well. In the old Cemetry in Sunderland and the ones in Manchester they do bury couple next to each other.

↑ rainbow baby

Mon, Sep 18 2006, 3:07 pm

A bit of an off topic but if a Jewish person is cremated are you allowed to sit Shiva and say Kaddish for that person?

sarahd ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 5:16 am

jewishmamathebest wrote:

Ummm...halacha seems to see it differently than you. Sometimes halacha does call on us to judge others, uncomfortable as it may be.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 10:37 am

jewishmamathebest wrote:

A bit of an off topic but if a Jewish person is cremated are you allowed to sit Shiva and say Kaddish for that person?

I think so?

If this is relevant to someone you know, maybe you can persuade him/her not to do that, but "just" have a civil funeral?

mimsy7420 ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 10:43 am

brooklyn wrote:

Also I don't feel it is up yo us to judge the level of someone's religion, that is up to hashem.

Just because someone says they are shomer shabbos and looks as if they are being shomer shabbos doesn't mean we know what is going on inside their own home. We all have Jewish neshamas, and the only one who can judge whether someone was shomer shabbos or not is Hashem. We as humans can not make such judgements.

gryp ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 11:47 am

there's no shiva for a person who was cremated. Sad

I'm not sure about kaddish.

↑ ny21

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 6:07 pm

Jewish Mama the best - the story you told us is far reaching,- LOL

I have heard that story in the good old USA ! LOL

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 8:14 pm

sarahd wrote:

Ummm...halacha seems to see it differently than you. Sometimes halacha does call on us to judge others, uncomfortable as it may be.

Yes, and I am finding it quite disturbing, on a frum forum, to read comment after comment knocking the halacha AFTER I posted the source in S. Aruch.

↑ ShiraMiri ↓

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 8:45 pm

This thread is made up of the opinions and feelings we have on the subject. As far as I know, no one here asked a shailah to a rav. I know in my community it was debated back and forth between rabbanim. In the end they did decide to put a shomer shabbos section into this very old Jewish cemetary.

Most anyone can find a quote in the Shulchan Orach on a topic. Does that mean we can paskin halacha? It does not. It often takes more than just the source from the Shulcahn Orach for a rav to paskin on a delicate matter. Sometimes it is the final word - other times there are different valid interpretations of the passage that leave room for different outcomesw depending on the situation and the person asking.

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