Feel better Mommy Z and I'm sure your husband appreciates your efforts.
The other side of the coin is that a good considerate husband shows his wife how much he appreciates her efforts for him and constantly tells her that. It's a positive feedback that makes one want to do even more for your husband, just as he does more for you. It's a really good cycle but someone has to start it and men have to be educated as young men by their fathers and hopefully seeing it in practice in their parental home so that they know what is expected of good husbands to show appreciattion to their wives.
It's not all work and drudgery for the women. And with all joking about aishes chayil, it says it all just look at the end. What does an aishes chayil get? More and more and more praise from her loved ones. Kumo bonehu vayasruha ba'alo vayhalelo. Rabos Bonos Uso Chayil Veat ulees al kulono.
"Darling, You beat them ALL!"
Thank you. Because he appreciated my little bit of effort I did my nails too. 8)
Some of you women seem to equate keeping a decent home, looking more than just "ok" and making nice meals with not being "calm" or "relaxed".
Why is that?
I think, because your idea of just ok or of a nice meal and a decent home, is the idea of a full show to many here.
For info, some women don't wear make up or really dress up even to a simcha. Make up at home? To me it is not more appropriate than a simcha gown at home. Make up is an outside stuff to us. The skin also needs to rest. It is not a concept or a plus to wear make up in the house. My classiest or girliest friends don't.
That said I don't wear clothes I wouldn't wear outside. Nor would I wear a houserobe! lol
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her husband comes home and she is never in a jeans skirt or a play top, always dressed well, with makeup, her nails are always perfectly done, and she is fit, even when pregnant she is probably slimmer and more fit than many non pregnant women! Pregnant or not she managed to make her own curtains, sewed new clothing for the new baby including new blankets and the like as my grandson is sitll using his old ones
Trendy girls wear jeans skirt to simchos in my world, there are jeans wedding gowns these days (not my cup of tea but very much expensive). What's the competition to look skinny even when pregnant (do the shtark MO have shtark MO doctors who allow diets and all during pregnancy)? what's the competition to do everything from scratch and sew away? what's with the crystal and china thing for every day life? what are those values? I just don't get it. I have been to extremely wealthy homes of various types and even there, I did not see it. I have seen homes with FT maidS (yes plural) and there again, not like that. SO???
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One of my daughters specializes in napkin folding in various really beautiful shapes and taught her sisters and sister in law how to do it and now they all do and it makes the table adorable! This davka I learned from her as she took a workshop in it. Her boyfriend gave it to her as a present as he is also like this and loves a really nice table
Total cultural block. I don't even notice how the napkin looks. And a workshop for napkin? Oy vey... I would have gone mad of boredom. I cannot fathom how it can be so important for someone. It's just a napkin. A plate stays there during the meal at least. A napkin is unfolded almost from start. It's just a napkin!! If you like forms, do origami, it stays!
My DH has absolutely no interest in things like that, and BH. And he already ismuch more into aesthetics than the average guy, especially frum, around here. He is always dressed well, has great taste, and a friend told him he thought he was gay because of that. LOL!!!
But if I started doing stuff with napkins, he would go crazy over the waste of time. He would also be very stifled in such environments (how do I know? because I read him from this thread and he told me it is awful for the guy, not only the woman). It's just not inviting, not cozy. It is like these posh restaurants were you are afraid to drop anything on the lace tablecloth or make a faux pas and the waiter is always ultra submitted and slaving around. Only pretty in picture.
Am I the only one who doesn't want praise for things I find natural? And who would actually dislike "you beat them all" because I don't compare my dh to others and expect the same? as well as knowing realistically no one "beats them all" on all topics?
I'm opening my husband's mind to the shtark MO world. LOL
Interestingly he used the terms I used previously in the thread: "never heard of", and "the worst of all worlds" (expectations of Hollywood, MO, charedi, old Europe, America, the 50's, modern days all together, plus a natural trend, plus meddling yentas, plus gossip on people's money and apartment, plus having to pay to marry your girl, plus competition, plus someone going through all sources and taking all the quotes speaking of women obligations and using them). So please don't think all men dream of such a setting.
Hey, he says he has seen ONE family like that from what he knew of them (because it was very obvious to him that it was very different). The man grew up in South America, maybe he was Persian or Syrian. He was married. The wife was never seen with him. He didn't seem at ease the few times he had the stroller.
DH also pointed the wives in your circles have the very same relationship of public kavod to their husband as a chassid to their rebbe!! I asked him if he saw that among the chassidim he knows he said NO. I asked if his ruv (Litvish, very into chassidim, married half of his kids into Gur and Belz) 's wife stands or doesn't contradict in public and shows a public Torah kavod like that? He laughed and said I am much meeker than she is. Does she put on make up and sheitel before the husband comes home? He burst out laughing. She did have make up sometimes to go out, unmistakeable because it is like what older ladies wear, a lot of dark lipstick and blush. She also often asked the ruv to do the errands. Despite being home, not working, kids still home at school, with lots of cleaning help. If the guests asked something not on the table she got up and went to the kitchen, but if the ruv wanted? he went to fetch it. All this seen by DH. In a gadol's house. Not quite modern or feminist, despite plates were brought already served and same for all.
And DH HAS SEEN MORE EXTREME, including among charedim. He reminded me when we went to his friend, charedi, kollel, Israel, HE served us and brought everything from the kitchen while his wife and me were chatting! and he cooks often. And he serves. And he helps tons with the kids, feeding, dressing, taking out, playing, diapers. House clealiness and order similar to ours (throw up worthy for shtark MO?). Wife doesn't work. Household help. Sheltered old school family, wife didn't believe me that some frum girls are taught Gemara at school.
So, yeah. Let's not malign all charedi or heavily old school men.
Ruchel, just because your husband isn't famliar with it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because you know brides that wear Jeans wedding gowns it doesn't make it acceptable in most frum circles. Just because you never put on makeup (I don't mean "concealer" or "foundation" which is what the word "make-up" means in Hebrew, maybe in french as well, I don't know it, but rather a bit of blush, powder, lipstick and for those who like it, a drop of eye shadown, mascara, and for those who need to fill in, eyebrow pencil but the last three are more a personal issue) at home doesn't mean that there aren't lots of women in the world who do it regularly when their husbands come home.
With us women are seen in public, they hold high public offices and positions and lots of other things. Well respected in their family, their community, their work, and some, even in the world because of what they do!
But that has nothing to do with how they conduct their home and the atmosphere they want there.
To say that a man does or doesn't change diapers whether charedi or not is not "maligning" them. That's really pushing it, it's just stating a fact that some people are making into a principle issue here.
And finally there is no "competition" to do anything. Maybe you are looking at is as such because many of the concepts I mention are alien to you, but believe me, for many women, sewing, making things from scratch to get healthier food without all the junk and preservatives (aren't you the one who is so allergic to MSG?) and setting a beautiful table and putting on some makeup when your husband comes home to look like a beautiful queen - its just a normal way of life and not a competition.
As for being or not being thin and fit during pregnancy, I don't know any doctor who doesn't say that it is healthier to remain a healthy weight for the pregnancy and not baloon up, taking "advantage" of being like that to overeat. And I don't know any doctor who says that it is not healthiest to remain fit during one's pregnancy as it often means a healthier baby and an easier birth. My daughter jogged until her sixth month began and still does yoga exercises daily even at the end of the 40th week. It makes her feel healthy!
I never said it doesn't exist. But if most people on this thread can't cite even one family like that, it means it is rare! or certainly not the norm for all halacha committed people.
I actually don't know any bride in jeans wedding gown, I just saw ads. And it is gorgeous, but I dreamed of the white gown.
Make up to me is make up. Not concealer or foundation. I have enough make up to open a shop, but it doesn't make sense at home to wear it to me. I also have dozens of shoes with heels, but wouldn't wear them at home. Etc.
I'm not allergic to MSG. I get migraines from it - at least it's not dangerous lol. And BH not all people have migraines, or migraines from MSG. And BH it is only ONE ingredient. And despite the fact it is in most stuff in Israel, it is not the case everywhere. If people are sick or allergic, they have to avoid what makes them sick or allergic. Not beshitta "natural" or beshitta from scratch, in my velt.
A queen doesn't cook, sew or clean. If my husband wants a queen, let him buy me a palace and servants. Queens also don't run after toddlers or nurse. Some went months without summoning their kids even for a quick visit, too. And last, it is not like queens dressed like on paintings or official dress every day either.
There is a world between pigging out and staying thin during a pregnancy. Even models when pregnant put on weight and have quite a belly in the end.
Jogging during pregnancy? Not for my docs, or my mom's, or my friends'... taking on a new sport? absolutely not allowed for us either except maybe stretching or smthg. A soft sport like swimming, etc, may be ok to continue if you stay under your normal performance. Why take any risk for a figure when you can diet after? "rest as much as you can" was the motto.
For info, I put on 11 kilos with DD (few especially for a tall woman in my world) and lost it all in 15 days, was in my normal clothes at naming, so I don't advocate pigging out.
But life doesn't revolve around impressive externals. You don't take your trophy wife look/china/folded napkins/kids appartments to Gan Eden.
As much as I love fashion and make up -ask the tznius fashionista blogger who saw my pics and wrote me just today that she would love to use them for an article on french fashion. Or my mom's friend who is a middle aged human resources manager who I met while I was dressed (imo) really so so because I was shlepping boxes of books to sell, and my mom told me her friend couldn't get over my look and said she didn't know there were such sophisticated dressers in their early 20's. Parisian human ressource manager, non Jewish.
Ruchel you say your life doesn't revolve around externals, but if so, why post a post here that you are looking to buy only a very certain color, length and type of sheitl and a year and a half before you think you may be going to NY you are already advertising - sheitlmachers, I want to buy!!
???
There is a reason for externals and they can be very important in setting an atmosphere. One always has to remember that they are not important on their OWN but only are secondary as part of a major issue. Atmosphere. Which is why chazal, once again, spoke about bayis noeh and keilim noim and a beautiful wife.
No one said life revolved around externals. They are there for a reason. Maybe you are focusing only on the externals when you write this and not realizing what their reason is and why there is a greater and deeper meaning behind them.
You write that a queen does nothing. Maybe a non jewish queen, certainly not an aishes chayil which is the highest kind of queen that frum yidden are supposed to aspire to be like.
In short you believe in marrying very very rich or having parents who can pay for a woman to sit and do nothing ever around the house because that's your idea of a queen.
Who said "take up a new sport". Why "take up" and why "new sport"? Don't you know women who work out regularly who jog every day all the time or every other day? Very common in the USA, EY and other places. Maybe French women never exercise but if so how do they stay healthy and fit? Regular exercise, as any doctor will tell you, is a very important component of being fit.
Ruchel you say your life doesn't revolve around externals, but if so, why post a post here that you are looking to buy only a very certain color, length and type of sheitl and a year and a half before you think you may be going to NY you are already advertising - sheitlmachers, I want to buy!!
If you ever search for something rare, you know why I ask in advance.
Externals are nice when they make life cooler, but not when they make it hard. And again, many frum ladies would say I am too much into it already though I am BH nowhere near the levels of this thread!!
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Maybe you are focusing only on the externals when you write this and not realizing what their reason is and why there is a greater and deeper meaning behind them.
Many externals have a deeper meanings, but many don't.
There is also a middle ground between horrible dishes and china daily
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Maybe a non jewish queen, certainly not an aishes chayil which is the highest kind of queen that frum yidden are supposed to aspire to be like.
Well then, who defines what type of make up an aishes chayil needs to wear? If I refer to the portraits of the ladies I consider EC, I would say... nothing. Okay!
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In short you believe in marrying very very rich or having parents who can pay for a woman to sit and do nothing ever around the house because that's your idea of a queen.
Is it so foreign that to me women are not queens and hence don't have to act like one? not in idleness, and not in dress? this queen business is meant to make women feel good after asking such hardships from them, I think. I would rather go with a simpler life.
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Who said "take up a new sport". Why "take up" and why "new sport"? Don't you know women who work out regularly who jog every day all the time or every other day?
Every day or so? Almost no one I know. I don't see many people jogging, and I live in an area that is perfect for it!
There is a happy middle ground between the Olympics and never, between jogging pregnant and not even walking a bit. Why so extreme? I don't get it, probably never will?
Well then Ruchel you live in a world which is alien to most of us. It's very common to see people jogging every morning, certainly anywhere in America and anywhere almost in EY except maybe the most charedi areas.
Olympics? Who is talking about the olympics. I guess to someone who never exercises or goes to a gym daily exercise sounds like the olympics?
Don't people jog in France? Or go to gyms or exercise daily?
I read recently that when doctors talk about exercise during pregnancy, they are referring ONLY to walking, and maybe swimming. Not straining in the manner of today's culture while carrying a tiny developing baby inside.
A few stretches, some relaxed walking, a modified number of laps in a pool. Nutritious eating. Drinking water. Appropriate resting. Regulated temperatures. That's what healthy for a pregnant mother and her child.
You have to have energy to diet and exercise a lot! I'm doing more now, and losing weight, but I'm not pregnant or nursing. And I'm pushing myself less in this very hot month of Av.
Isramom there is a difference between a simcha for a friend or acquaintance in a hall where there are so many distractions and things to see - the chuppa setup and flower arrangement, the kallah's dress, the table setting, the bridal party dresses (in the charedi world mothers and sisters etc. wear matching dresses very often here while in Israeli DL circles it is much rarer) etc.
I'm taking about in one's own home. There men notice. I'm talking about the balabus, not guests.
FS, it is juts not true. Not all men, and most men that I know, do not notice these types of things. It is not on their radar.
When I say that her place is a mess, I think that most of you if you would see it would consider it just fine, in MY standards and that of her machatenister who is like me, it is not up to scratch hence my machatenister gave her a present of an ozeret once every two weeks to do the heavy stuff as she is pregnant (and due this week, in a gite shu) and her husband isn't home to do the shlepping, moving furniture to clean behind it, , climing for the blinds and curtains etc.. But she is always put together, her husband comes home and she is never in a jeans skirt or a play top, always dressed well, with makeup, her nails are always perfectly done, and she is fit, even when pregnant she is probably slimmer and more fit than many non pregnant women! Pregnant or not she managed to make her own curtains, sewed new clothing for the new baby including new blankets and the like as my grandson is sitll using his old ones, and sets a beautiful table albeit without crystal these days.
Hate to break it to you, but I dont know anyone who climbs to clean their blinds or moved the furniture every time they clean (and what is so heavy about a couch really? Do you move the fridge to clean behind it every week?)
Jean skirt? First off, not everyone even owns them, and for those who do, what in the world is wrong with a jean skirt? nails done? I dont belong to any culture or community where many women do that at all.
Sewing, again, that is something that you enjoyed so you passed it on to your daughter. It is not that way in everyone's family. Ill tell you, my mother enjoys drawing, and is very very good at it. She sort of "passed down" that joy. I love that. Sewing is just something that she is good at, it is not a norm for young girls to sew all the things you mentioned.
Well then Ruchel you live in a world which is alien to most of us. It's very common to see people jogging every morning, certainly anywhere in America and anywhere almost in EY except maybe the most charedi areas.
Olympics? Who is talking about the olympics. I guess to someone who never exercises or goes to a gym daily exercise sounds like the olympics?
Don't people jog in France? Or go to gyms or exercise daily?
People don't jog in France to the extent that we are accustomed to, not even close. The entire working out culture is foreign to many of them. Although many bike everywhere, and there is some health consciousness, you really are talking about two different worlds.
Still, sometimes I do believe Ruchel is living in a different France than the one I have experience with, but hey, I can't claim to have rolled in her circles, so what do I know. The sweeping generalizations bother me, but so do yours.
I read recently that when doctors talk about exercise during pregnancy, they are referring ONLY to walking, and maybe swimming. Not straining in the manner of today's culture while carrying a tiny developing baby inside.
A few stretches, some relaxed walking, a modified number of laps in a pool. Nutritious eating. Drinking water. Appropriate resting. Regulated temperatures. That's what healthy for a pregnant mother and her child.
You have to have energy to diet and exercise a lot! I'm doing more now, and losing weight, but I'm not pregnant or nursing. And I'm pushing myself less in this very hot month of Av.
In my experience, doctors in America encourage women to maintain the level of activity they are accustomed to from before their pregnancy. So long as a particular sport or activity is not specifically harmful given the changes pregnancy brings, pregnant women can do as much as they are used to and can maintain without feeling additional strain or other side effects. This has been noted to assist in overall strength and fitness during pregnancy, delivery and postpartum periods.
Well then Ruchel you live in a world which is alien to most of us. It's very common to see people jogging every morning, certainly anywhere in America and anywhere almost in EY except maybe the most charedi areas.
Olympics? Who is talking about the olympics. I guess to someone who never exercises or goes to a gym daily exercise sounds like the olympics?
Don't people jog in France? Or go to gyms or exercise daily?
I see PEOPLE jogging. But compared to all the others who don't? it's a tiny minority.
Daily gym? Yes, for stars I guess, and in some circles. Regular people who go twice a week already do a lot. Last year I wanted to register to an all women gym and I asked all my local friends and acquaitances. No one was willing to do it.
Yup many people who don't have a car walk a lot or bike.
Could be that if you have large population in france that walks and bikes on a daily basis instead of using a car, that is their good healthy exercise daily. I know that in Amsterdam friends of ours who bike everywhere are in great shape and never jog, but they get an hour of cardio training daily just from biking to and from work and other places! So it evens out.
I too have learned that unless you are talking a dangerous sport it is normal to keep up one's daily form of exercise until is is unwieldy for the baby. The reason that my daughter's doctor (and husband the doctor) stopped her jogging in her sixth month was because of the added strain on her spine because of the weight in front, had nothing to do with the baby's health or a fear of miscarriage, that would have been more of a fear davka in the early months.
Shabbat just because YOU don't know men who enjoy esthetics means that you know every kind of man in the world, every society and therefore if you said it is extremely rare so be it? That's a bit narrow you know. There are lots of different kinds of men with different levels of appreciation for aesthetics and there are many, many men who truly appreciate aesthetics, enjoy women who are made up with their nails done and who dress tip top as often as they can. No one is telling anyone to clean the house in heels and an evening dress (lol!) but in my world and that of many others, jeans material is considered very, let's say, shleppy and if one wears it which I don't, it's for "knock around" and very casual. If one wants to be very casual all the time at home, so be it, but there are men who appreciate a woman who dresses better than that.
It's all in what your society is used to. Maybe I'm talking about a bit more of an upper class society than some of you are used to? A bit more sophisticated possibly.
LOL no I wouldn't say a large population walks a lot. It is a known problem. But so is over exercizing and exercize in pregnancy.
I don't consider what you describe sophisticate but obsessive. I've been to ultra sophisticated homes, as I said. And men into small details like nails? Well the most picky ones don't like ugly nails, but manicure and all... lol...
It's all in what your society is used to. Maybe I'm talking about a bit more of an upper class society than some of you are used to? A bit more sophisticated possibly.
You are getting extremely defensive.
And yes, people enjoy beautiful aesthetics. But most husbands are more concerned about the health of their wives then about how lovely the napkins are folded.
I still can not comprehend how YOU fail to see the problem in telling your daughters to eat in the kitchen so they don't embarrass the guests. Either the guests fail to see what is on your daughter's plate, and so why would it matter if your daughter spread chumus or peanut butter or something similar on their bread (put it, in a pretty little glass dish for grief sake!) or they would NOTICE the fact that your girls weren't eating a main course served from a platter or plated as you have explained.
Moreover, to worry about a gossip stating your daughter has no portion control for eating a normal piece of chicken, is to condemn your entire community as being guilty of l"h. Why in the world anyone would care two figs for what this woman would say is beyond me. Ludicrous don't you think? If such a bore entertained me with her "comments" I'd start putting food on HER plate. Each time this bore made a comment on my child's eating or my husband's eating or someone else's eating I "serve her" a helping of rice or whatever. And if she asked what I was doing I would say "I'm sorry, I thought you asked for more food..." IF I didn't tell her straight out "I really don't care what other people eat. I'm not sure why anyone does..."
Shabbat just because YOU don't know men who enjoy esthetics means that you know every kind of man in the world, every society and therefore if you said it is extremely rare so be it? That's a bit narrow you know. There are lots of different kinds of men with different levels of appreciation for aesthetics and there are many, many men who truly appreciate aesthetics, enjoy women who are made up with their nails done and who dress tip top as often as they can. No one is telling anyone to clean the house in heels and an evening dress (lol!) but in my world and that of many others, jeans material is considered very, let's say, shleppy and if one wears it which I don't, it's for "knock around" and very casual. If one wants to be very casual all the time at home, so be it, but there are men who appreciate a woman who dresses better than that.
It's all in what your society is used to. Maybe I'm talking about a bit more of an upper class society than some of you are used to? A bit more sophisticated possibly.
FS - most men will notice if a woman looks elegant or shlumpy. Of course.
And there are many men who appreciate esthetics. Somehow I don't think your 'elite' circle is exclusively producing the top architects and interior designers in Israel.
But, if we are talking norms, I would venture to say that things like tablesetting are usually more for the woman than for the man. Just go to china stores and see who is agonizing over every table setting. Do most men really care??? In most homes, buying fine china is the women's choice and joy (of course some women don't care at all, but usually IF someone cares, it's the wife).
So if the woman is spending hours setting the table, folding napkins, matching the rim of the plate to the shade of the tablecloth, it's because SHE loves the final effect. Because most men won't care about these details at all.
Often the cherry on top of a lovely table is a bouquet of flowers. Traditionally, who buys the flowers for Shabbat? (if any are bought). The dh buys for his wife. For her to enjoy. Not for him.
Maybe it's because Montreal had its Pride Parade yesterday, but I wonder about the kind of man who notices so many aesthetic things like folded napkins, manicures, etc. Most of the men I know notice if a woman is well-groomed, clean, and "their type" but nitty-gritty details about table settings? Hey, as long as they know the correct answer to "Does this dress make me look fat?" is NEVER "As a matter of fact, yeah", we're okay.
A word on sophisticated upper-class homes.
It is often the nouveau riche who feel pressure to dress up all the time. Who feel pressure to have classy tables and classy furniture and classy clothes.
The truly upper class are often a lot more relaxed. They have nothing to prove. I remember watching a movie a few years ago, where an upper class couple invited a (middle-class) friend for dinner. She came all dressed up, with a skirt and pearls, while they were relaxing in jeans. Obviously it was awkward.
One of the movie reviews analyzed this scene in terms of the contrast between a confident upper-class sophisticated lifestyle, and the desperate wanna-be type.
