Shabbat you may see it but not integrate it.
There are things one is taught, especially before marriage.
It's like someone who sits in a car on a certain route 1000 times but only when they are at the point where they are driving that route do they actually learn it.
And I don't see anything funny or endearing about "winging it".
I think that a husband who has a delicious meal ready for him and a beautifully set table is very happy about it and I think that it can set the tone for something really lovely in marriage.
Doesn't every woman worth her salt as a woman also want to be a halfway decent balabusta?
Of course every woman wants to be a decent balabusta, but first of all, that definitely means different things to different men and sometimes winging it can be a bonding experience. I know that I always knew how to cook (just from watching my mother. As I only left home at 23, I did cook some as I got older, but not a lot) but I remember very clearly that right in the beginning of our marriage, but husband and I spent a LOT of time together in the kitchen (and he was learning in a kollel then and still made the time) it was fun for both of us to have that time learning about what the other did know and what we didnt know.
What is one "taught" before marriage as opposed to watching a parent and then knowing how to do something?
I agree with Shabbat, there is something that is bonding about 'winging it' as a newlywed. Most guys I know don't expect their young 23 year old wife to prepare gourmet meals.
As for a beautifully set table....honestly, most guys I know couldn't care less. I set the table beautifully because I care. Same with most women I know. Most men I know don't care about that kind of thing at all, maximum maybe they want real dishes because they don't like eating on paper plates. But they don't care what colour the plates are, or if the glasses are crystal or glass, or if the napkins are cheap off-white or the most expensive patterned stuff from your local design store. Or if napkin was folded on the lef-hand side or the right or placed in the cup. They just don't notice. Again, most men, not all, but we're talking your typical guy.
And anyway, setting a table is davka something that most kids do get to practise, since it's an easy task to let them do on a Friday afternoon.
Well I guess in my world the guys have different standards.
As for bonding in marriage, I wouldn't say that standing around in the kitchen with a helpless wife trying to cook something together is "bonding", but to each his own.
My daughter and my daughter in law both knew how to cook, bake, and make things from scratch when they got married. My son in law for example loves really good meals. His mother is a wonderful balabusta and he expected good meals when he got married. He was an intern, he didn't have any time to "bond" in the kitchen and when he finally came home from the hospital he wanted a decent meal if possible. After his son was born, he agreed with my daughter that all time is given to the baby and therefore the nice meals ended for a while but as he said to me, when the little babies are over he can't wait for her to go back to cooking for him as she used to. She was better than me, a real gourmet, but the basis was what I taught her.
My daughter in law, with all my criticisms of her in other fields, is boruch hashem a beriyah in the kitchen! A true balabusta even with the baby now, but as the baby is on her at all times it doesn't stop her yet. We shall see what will be when she's a toddler and not in a sling full time. But my daughter in law, she bakes bread from scratch almost daily (not in a bread maker, from scratch!) she makes her own jams and marmalades, candied fruit skins, she smokes her own fish and meat. Although she hasn't done it for a while she is one of the few women I know who makes homemade grivenes for my son as he loves it, although she is into health food and wouldn't touch it for herself. But her mother, bless her, taught her well.
As for setting a nice table, Ruchel not all men are savages. There are those who grew up in homes with beautifully set tables and expect it as matter of course. My husband was like that even when we first married. He was the one who insisted that we use the good stuff all the time and not save it for shabbos (until the kids were born and breaking things for a while), but it came out again as soon as they were old enough to respect good china.
It's all part of the atmosphere. You create an atmosphere of calm and beauty and you have a different kind of household than if you are using paper or in EY plastic disposable plates and junky one ply oilcloth kind of napkins that they have in falafel places here in EY, the typical cheepo Israeli kind. The woman makes the home. The women establishes the atmosphere, and it is up to her what kind of atmosphere she wants to create and the setting she wants to have.
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
This has nothing to do with having a good time, wonderful conversation and terrific seks. All things for young couples which are REAL bonding in a marriage.
What is stifling about good food, nice dishes, and calm atmosphere? What do they need? Fights? Crying? Dirty dishes? Wife in a housecoat with curlers in her hair???Oy!
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
This has nothing to do with having a good time, wonderful conversation and terrific seks. All things for young couples which are REAL bonding in a marriage.
What is stifling about good food, nice dishes, and calm atmosphere? What do they need? Fights? Crying? Dirty dishes? Wife in a housecoat with curlers in her hair???Oy!
I don't need to cure my own meats to serve my husband great food. Nor does he need to :-)
I love serving on china with silver and crystal. But we save our china for Shabbos (and our kids use china just fine). I love having a well set table, but if my time can be spent on limited amounts of stuff, I would prefer not to use crystal since DH could care less and I have to handwash.
I don't wear makeup. I wear it to special weddings (like mine, siblings weddings things like that). DH likes the way I look naturally. Why is the choice housecoat/dirty/chaos vs gourmet, time consuming food with a wife that took 2 hours to get dressed?
FTR, my friends joke that I'm Suzy Homemaker (I'm not haha!). I love cooking beautiful, fancy food. I would love my house to be as spotless as Tamiris. I pick and choose my battles. DH does too. We tend to pick the most important things for us to concentrate on and leave externals and superficiality aside.
Cooking isn't even that hard. If you need exact directions, look at youtube videos. That's what my husband does when he is stuck on a step.
There is also a big cultural divide. I would never waste my time and energy on making ketchup. Its easy and cheap enough to buy (at $1/bottle w/o coupons) and we use so little that I'm not concerned about the small amount of chemicals in there.
Baking isn't that hard either, its just more precise. I currently have a terrible oven that heats so unevenly so I don't bake much. When I get a better oven, I'll bake a lot more.
Well I guess in my world the guys have different standards.
As for bonding in marriage, I wouldn't say that standing around in the kitchen with a helpless wife trying to cook something together is "bonding", but to each his own.
Yes, exactly. To each their own. I remember with such fond memories, my husband, coming home from his yeshiva, at about 10 pm the first two years, and us spending time together making some small meal for him to eat when he got home.
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My daughter and my daughter in law both knew how to cook, bake, and make things from scratch when they got married.
I think that most girls know how to cook and bake basics for sure. And what is wrong with following a recipe book to make something other than what their mother showed them?
As for things from scratch, that is something off my radar completely. I dont know people who do that.
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As for setting a nice table, Ruchel not all men are savages. There are those who grew up in homes with beautifully set tables and expect it as matter of course. My husband was like that even when we first married. He was the one who insisted that we use the good stuff all the time and not save it for shabbos (until the kids were born and breaking things for a while), but it came out again as soon as they were old enough to respect good china.
FS, my husband comes from a home with two live in workers (south africa) and the table was ALWAYS in the best form it coupld possibly be. Never a crumb or stain. My husband was thrilled with disposables every now and then because he never washed a dish in his life and he did not want me to "slave away" in the kitchen any more than I had to. I think most men, if asked, would rather a happy wife and not realy care so much about what they are eating on.
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It's all part of the atmosphere. You create an atmosphere of calm and beauty and you have a different kind of household than if you are using paper or in EY plastic disposable plates and junky one ply oilcloth kind of napkins that they have in falafel places here in EY, the typical cheepo Israeli kind. The woman makes the home. The women establishes the atmosphere, and it is up to her what kind of atmosphere she wants to create and the setting she wants to have.
You do know that there is paper throw aways here, not just cheap plastic ones.
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
This has nothing to do with having a good time, wonderful conversation and terrific seks. All things for young couples which are REAL bonding in a marriage.
What is stifling about good food, nice dishes, and calm atmosphere? What do they need? Fights? Crying? Dirty dishes? Wife in a housecoat with curlers in her hair???Oy!
No, guys are not unhappy with those things, but some men either dont care or dont want those things. I wore make up for exactly two hours of my life, for the badekin and pictures of my wedding. I got into the yichud room and asked my husband, of about 30 minutes, for a wod of toilet paper to wipe it off. he was more than happy for me to take it off. Of course no man or woman for that matter would be unhapy about a delicious meal, but whats wrong wit trial and error in that department? A man can be just as happy with something a bit less delicious but know that the new wife tried her best. I dont see what is wrong with that.
My dh would laugh (with sadness) if I felt I have to put on make up to stay at home or to impress him. Like if I wore a simcha gown a home, also. Just not the right setting, for us. He may also wonder if I'm not comfortable with him.
Mine doesn't mind make up per se. As long as he doesn't see it too much
Now, my dad thinks make up is unhealthy for the skin... he is a retired designer who has worked with models and for ladies such as Brigitte Bardot (a size 12, btw), and he married my mom (love at first sight, didn't dare talking to her, obsessed over her for a year, met her again at a common friend, they were engaged 15 days after) who NEVER wears make up and doesn't dress up and hates clothes shopping and wears sneakers and flat comfy shoes. She also doesn't cook. He didn't look for a "balabusta", neither do most men I know. If anything they would like to be left in mess a bit more! My great uncle suffered all his life to be with a wife he loved very dearly, but who was a "perfect balabusta". My saba also would like my sabta to be a bit less into it... I have no desire to become one, and it would probably annoy my husband MUCH more than mess.
As long as both are upfront about what they look for, what's the problem? My husband knew about my "skills" in the house before we even met IRL, I let him know when the shidduch was being done. Btw I never had problems with this. Some guys even seemed relieved, I guess their mom was a "perfect balabusta"...
To quote my dh's best friend, "as long as there aren't bugs!!".
Btw my MIL would iron even kitchen rags (most other stuff was done by the cleaning lady so yeah) and my dh found it ridiculous.
My husband insists we use disposable, and we don't spend any more money than possible on it, so we keep time and money for other things like top quality food or great clothes or trips. He eats the food not the plate. And it's not like we don't have Wedgwood or Carlo Ginori. But everything has its place and time...
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
FS, these things come with a price.
Many men would prefer a relaxed wife and plastic plates, than beautiful china and an absent wife. Which pretty much describes your Shabbat meals.
Also, as you often say, most women today are not SAHMs. They are busy too, often with a full-time job and studying when they get married. By the time they get home, they are usually not up to whipping up gourmet meals. That's a valid expectation of a new bride who stays home full time.
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
FS, these things come with a price.
Many men would prefer a relaxed wife and plastic plates, than beautiful china and an absent wife. Which pretty much describes your Shabbat meals.
Also, as you often say, most women today are not SAHMs. They are busy too, often with a full-time job and studying when they get married. By the time they get home, they are usually not up to whipping up gourmet meals. That's a valid expectation of a new bride who stays home full time.
Totally agree.
If we're running out of time on a friday and I still start to make a cake, dh will get upset. He'd rather not have desert than deal with the extra stress from the time lost making it.
And thanks shabbat for mentioning learning to cook as a kalle, it brings back great memories. My mom never had patience for me in the kitchen and I did learn a bit while I was in Israel when I would stay by my friend and help her prepare shabbes, but there was a lot I didnt know. Dh actually taught me quite a few things, having just come out of the army. In the beginning, most Fridays were spent together in the kitchen preparing shabbes. We had such fun, especially when things would go kinda wrong. All in all I think there was only ever one dish that really wasnt so good. Now I do everything and dh loves my cooking. I also make lots from scratch cause lots of things arent available kosher wise, but not things like ketchup. And most of these things I simply learned to make from the internet.
Why cleaver atmosphere? You know guys who are unhappy with a beautifully set table, a nicely made up wife and delicious food?
FS, these things come with a price.
Many men would prefer a relaxed wife and plastic plates, than beautiful china and an absent wife. Which pretty much describes your Shabbat meals.
Also, as you often say, most women today are not SAHMs. They are busy too, often with a full-time job and studying when they get married. By the time they get home, they are usually not up to whipping up gourmet meals. That's a valid expectation of a new bride who stays home full time.
I agree completely. My husband grew up with two full time live in houeshold helpers (maids if you want) the table was always set hours before the meal, and with wonderfully yummy food and the nicest dishes and all that jazz.
We on the otherhand, and this was talked about between me and my husband after we were married a while, that for me, and thereby him, to be more relaxed before shabbat at least, and sometimes during the week as well, we will "invest" if you will in throw aways for the week and lovely paper plates for shabbat. This is what my husband wants. FS, there really are husbands out there that would prefer a relaxed calm wife over what you describe as the norm in a home.
Some of you women seem to equate keeping a decent home, looking more than just "ok" and making nice meals with not being "calm" or "relaxed".
Why is that?
If one learns from one's mother how to run a household efficiently, in terms of both time and money, and to keep onesself looking tip top, it's no stress, it can be done calmly, and relaxed.
sounds like doing anything but the minimum around the house and using anything but disposables and ready boughts etc. will make some of you uptight.
Wow. That's too bad.
Some of you women really seem to equate the things which I and many consider simple with "not being calm". I guess if your idea of a calm home is wearing sweats and no makeup or just throwing on a stam T shirt and skirt and using take away, disposables or only the most simple of foods, then anything else will make you sweat it.
It's not like that in the house of any balabusta I know. The atmosphere is happy, calm, and things run efficiently. Some women work full time out of the house, others part time. Some have an ozeret, others like me don't. Everything moves calmly. It's no big deal to go and wash your face before your husband comes home, put on some cologne water, put on some blush, powder, lipstick, even clear, brush up your sheitl and be wearing either nice clothes or a really beautiful houserobe like I do. No one asked you to put on a girdle, stockings and heels. No one asked you to put contours on your cheeks.
But wow, in my world the way you ladies describe it, everything makes you sweat it and become "uncalm". Maybe if you had learned efficient ways of running a home and kitchen you wouldn't feel that way because it would not stress you out so much.
FS - I do wear make up at home and like to look fresh. I do like a beautiful table, china, crystal, the works (although often admit to cheating and going for quality plastic). So I get where you are coming from.
However, one really cannot have it all, as your descriptions of your own life show. Your beautiful shabbat table, with the real china, the good food, and the impeccable manners (no scraping of plates; no stacking; etc) -- this beautiful table comes at the expense of your presence at the table. So maybe things are calm and lovely at the table. Maybe you remain cool and the picture of grace. But you aren't even there at the meal, you are off in the scullery scraping plates.
I think others claim they would be harried because they aren't willing to make this compromise. If they go for the real china and the gourmet food and the lipstick and the hair -- they still want to be there at the meal, active partners in the conversation. And one can't have it all, or maybe one can, but the end result is a harried housewife.
You aren't harried because you have already accepted that your absence for most of the meal is part of the deal.
Friedasima, didnt you spend almsot 100 pages convincing us that kids come first amd there is nothing wrong with the house being a perpetual mess and no hot me on the table, even bringing your daughter as an example? How do you reconcile that with the impeccably set table, gourmet food and beautifully dressed wife?? Hmmm....
Fs, things change in life.
The past year I worked PT, but full days at the end of the week. Since the country I live in now isnt set up for women with little kids working, I did a lot of running around and was more or less a FT mom as well, except for those hours that I worked and my kid was in daycare at my work.
In the winter both dh and I came home about 45 min before shabbes.
So all the balabusta skills I had learned up until now had to be completely rearranged. Oh and I forgot to mention I was in my first trimester while dh was in extreme exam mode.
Things change and we have to role with it. So this past year we had much simpler shabbeses, with a lot less variation in the meals and less guests.
On the other hand, we hired a leaning lady, so at least for shabbes our home looked perfect, I always get dressed nicely, even if it's only us home for shabbes and we've only ever not used our nice dishes once, when we were 25+ people.
I dont think anyone is saying that one has to leave all these things out to relax, just that sometimes something has to go and that some of our husbands actually prefer it that way.
As for learning it all at home, not everyone has that opportunity and we really can learn by ourselves.
