btw I don't wear makeup but my husband would prefer I didn't.
Fine china would be nice if we could buy, we can't. There are more important things in my life to think about.
Some of you women seem to equate keeping a decent home, looking more than just "ok" and making nice meals with not being "calm" or "relaxed".
Why is that?
If one learns from one's mother how to run a household efficiently,
Big ifs....
And who would have voted Friedasima most likely to win the Marybelle Morganstern award...(BTW Mama Bear, the original MM would have heartily approved of your typo )
And BTW, Friedasima, this will explain everything: my mother was more the Sidetracked Home Executive type, even if she did make lattice top pies when there was a full moon. (Maybe other times too.) And she sewed magnificently too. Pity she didn't have the patience to teach us whatever she knew. But I did get her warped sense of humor, predilection for mysteries, and generosity of spirit.
Jewish version of Marybelle Morgan, who IIRC was known as the Happy Homemaker. Imagine June Cleaver but in the 10:00 prime time slot in 2011.
In that case, yes.
Because I think the theme song to FS's culture is "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never ever let you forgot your a man..." which was advertisers answers to both feminism and the response to feminism.
I cannot keep up. I don't want to keep up with this thread. What has this morphed into now?
I will say that I think that it's cruel not to make sure a daughter knows how to cook before she gets married. Too many young wives are trying to figure out how to cook when they get married. That's needless. There is so much that has to be new. Cooking doesn't also have to be new. Just let your daughter into the kitchen and bond with her and show her how to do things. Otherwise, what's wrong with you?
By the way, these girls seem to pick it up very fast and do a great job, but I was glad I knew how to cook, albeit my FIL thought I didn't because he saw me with a recipe book.
I will also say that I am nowhere near the balabuste I would like to be (yet), and it affects my self esteem and therefore my marriage. All the homemaking skills help marriages. They reduce the mental energy needed for life.
My husband is happy to do anything and everything around the house, but I would prefer to be able to manage without it. The more he does himself, the less the appreciation and the more obligation you have to be grateful to him that he helped you do what you wish you could do yourself anyway and what made you feel like you failed. And what if he gets too involved and takes too much time up with it? It's frustrating.
Another thing: the dynamics of marriage and the distinctive roles have definitely changed in the modern world. I never imagined that the MO "shita" had anything to do with more strict gender roles, but maybe it does, or maybe it's a generation thing. In my circles, which are chareidi, but a small section of chareidi society, and I'm thinking of families with young children, men help with all sorts of things, certainly including childcare. They do it usually at key times of the day for short times relative to their wives. I think I have one neighbor's husband who had never changed his first child's diaper when his second was born, and it came up in a conversation because it was unusual. Part of the reason why men help so much is that a lot of families have kids very close in age.
Another thing: the dynamics of marriage and the distinctive roles have definitely changed in the modern world. I never imagined that the MO "shita" had anything to do with more strict gender roles, but maybe it does, or maybe it's a generation thing. In my circles, which are chareidi, but a small section of chareidi society, and I'm thinking of families with young children, men help with all sorts of things, certainly including childcare. They do it usually at key times of the day for short times relative to their wives. I think I have one neighbor's husband who had never changed his first child's diaper when his second was born, and it came up in a conversation because it was unusual. Part of the reason why men help so much is that a lot of families have kids very close in age.
I think it is more generational. The idea of woman having a career (and not a job to pay bills) came about when I was young (teens). But women who were pursing careers were often painted in an ugly light. NOT feminine, wanting sissfied men etc. So I'm not kidding about the bacon/pan/man theme song. In a way having a career for a woman was a PRIVILEGE, not a right, and a career woman had to show she wasn't neglecting kids or man.
I think younger men today are much less concerned with wives having careers or their changing diapers and how that might make them appear.
There's a lot less to fight against. They don't feel less "manly" because they make supper. And women don't feel less feminine because they make a power decision at home.
Well I've never heard of this marybell whatever but I definitely think it is very important to show your husband all the time that you are a woman and he is a man no matter what you do around the house.
I agree that when you are pregnant or nursing that changes things, but that stage in life also doesn't last forever and in the long run you spend more years not pregnant or nursing that you do in those stages.
Someone mentioned my older daughter. Well, when one is in my older daughter's situation it is understandable that you can't be up on everything. After all she works full time, is going to school full time in a very demanding MA program in another city, busy with her laboratory for the experiments for her thesis, and is raising her son basically on her own as her husband is always at the hospital. She also doesn't buy ready mades or anything and what she does make, like me she makes from scratch (homemade chumus, techina, ketchup, salads, etc.) . Like us she is very into health. Her son prefers a carrot to a piece of cake. Good chinuch.
When I say that her place is a mess, I think that most of you if you would see it would consider it just fine, in MY standards and that of her machatenister who is like me, it is not up to scratch hence my machatenister gave her a present of an ozeret once every two weeks to do the heavy stuff as she is pregnant (and due this week, in a gite shu) and her husband isn't home to do the shlepping, moving furniture to clean behind it, , climing for the blinds and curtains etc.. But she is always put together, her husband comes home and she is never in a jeans skirt or a play top, always dressed well, with makeup, her nails are always perfectly done, and she is fit, even when pregnant she is probably slimmer and more fit than many non pregnant women! Pregnant or not she managed to make her own curtains, sewed new clothing for the new baby including new blankets and the like as my grandson is sitll using his old ones, and sets a beautiful table albeit without crystal these days.
HR no one said that there aren't more important things than china in life. But whatever one has, even being very very frugal or without means, it is still possible to set a beautiful table. To go outside and pick some flowers for the table and arrange them attractively. To fold paper napkins in beautiful ways to make the table look special. One of my daughters specializes in napkin folding in various really beautiful shapes and taught her sisters and sister in law how to do it and now they all do and it makes the table adorable! This davka I learned from her as she took a workshop in it. Her boyfriend gave it to her as a present as he is also like this and loves a really nice table (and I guess he wants to marry her, she should just make a decision already..)
Baba you are right, not everyone can learn these things at home, but there is still a lot that most people can learn from their mothers.
HR no one said that there aren't more important things than china in life. But whatever one has, even being very very frugal or without means, it is still possible to set a beautiful table. To go outside and pick some flowers for the table and arrange them attractively. To fold paper napkins in beautiful ways to make the table look special. One of my daughters specializes in napkin folding in various really beautiful shapes and taught her sisters and sister in law how to do it and now they all do and it makes the table adorable! This davka I learned from her as she took a workshop in it. Her boyfriend gave it to her as a present as he is also like this and loves a really nice table (and I guess he wants to marry her, she should just make a decision already..)
Baba you are right, not everyone can learn these things at home, but there is still a lot that most people can learn from their mothers.
This is all fine and well. But I stick by what I said earlier, this is the type of thing that women usually notice. Most guys (unlike your dd's boyfriend) couldn't care less whether the napkin is folded like a swan or a flower. So it's silly to pretend this kind of tablescaping is in honour of the HOH. It's just for the delight of the ba'alat habayit and her (female) guests.
Table you may be talking from your experience while others are talking from different experiences. There are lots of men who appreciate such beauty and effort. Men of all ages. Don't sell them short. "Most guys"? have you done a survey? I personally know enough that DO care and they aren't so rare. Maybe they don't know whether it has been folded into a swan or a bear or a flower, but they can see the effort and that it looks pretty. And that makes for a very aesthetic table and they enjoy aesthetics.
Men, at least some men, notice a lot more than what you will give them credit for.
Here's an example. At dinner tonight I was serving my husband fleishigs but I wanted pareve as we had some lox around the house and I wasn't in the mood for something hot. Lox is the only fish I really like and because of the oil and the fact that I can't eat oil, I have to blot the slices. So I blotted it and must have gotten some of the oil on my fingernails, which were glistening when I came to the table.
The first thing my husband said to me was "Freidasima! you did your nails with colorless polish, they are shining so beautifullly"
Oy. And I had to go and tell him that it was lox grease. I promised him that later this evening I would do my nails as I hadn't done them for quite a while.
So, an almost 60 year old man notices things. And you can be sure that the younger men, many of them, notice a lot more! And appreciate it. Don't sell guys short.
Well, we economized at my dd's wedding by having beautiful floral centerpieces on the women's tables, and a single flower in a plain vase on the men's tables. Do you think any of the guys remember? They remember the leibedig dancing.
Now, I don't think the women particularly remember the flowers either. But they'd remember if the place looked skimpy.
Isramom there is a difference between a simcha for a friend or acquaintance in a hall where there are so many distractions and things to see - the chuppa setup and flower arrangement, the kallah's dress, the table setting, the bridal party dresses (in the charedi world mothers and sisters etc. wear matching dresses very often here while in Israeli DL circles it is much rarer) etc.
I'm taking about in one's own home. There men notice. I'm talking about the balabus, not guests.
We should do a thread on that. How much does the typical dh notice. Of course most will notice if the table is basically elegant or not. But I highly doubt that women need to learn the fine art of tablescaping in order to please their husbands. I somehow suspect that most men won't care if the china has a platinum ring but the tablecloth is cream (wasn't there a thread on this yesterday?).
The basics they notice. Are the plates plastic or china, for example. Is the table nice and neat and clean. Beyond that, I do think table-setting is more for the balabusta's pleasure than for her husband's.
But you are right, maybe most men do notice all this stuff and I am just extrapolating from my experience.
Table you may be talking from your experience while others are talking from different experiences. There are lots of men who appreciate such beauty and effort. Men of all ages. Don't sell them short. "Most guys"? have you done a survey? I personally know enough that DO care and they aren't so rare. Maybe they don't know whether it has been folded into a swan or a bear or a flower, but they can see the effort and that it looks pretty. And that makes for a very aesthetic table and they enjoy aesthetics.
Men, at least some men, notice a lot more than what you will give them credit for.
Here's an example. At dinner tonight I was serving my husband fleishigs but I wanted pareve as we had some lox around the house and I wasn't in the mood for something hot. Lox is the only fish I really like and because of the oil and the fact that I can't eat oil, I have to blot the slices. So I blotted it and must have gotten some of the oil on my fingernails, which were glistening when I came to the table.
The first thing my husband said to me was "Freidasima! you did your nails with colorless polish, they are shining so beautifullly"
Oy. And I had to go and tell him that it was lox grease. I promised him that later this evening I would do my nails as I hadn't done them for quite a while.
So, an almost 60 year old man notices things. And you can be sure that the younger men, many of them, notice a lot more! And appreciate it. Don't sell guys short.
I've been putting on makeup and perfume for my dh every day for the last few weeks. I wasn't feeling well last night and today but when I knew he was on his way I showered and put on my makeup even though I knew he would only be home for a few minutes. He asked me if I was going out and I said I wasn't but wanted to feel good about myself. He was pleased with that. The reason for it is that our Rav told me that it would help my marriage.
Feel better Mommy Z and I'm sure your husband appreciates your efforts.
The other side of the coin is that a good considerate husband shows his wife how much he appreciates her efforts for him and constantly tells her that. It's a positive feedback that makes one want to do even more for your husband, just as he does more for you. It's a really good cycle but someone has to start it and men have to be educated as young men by their fathers and hopefully seeing it in practice in their parental home so that they know what is expected of good husbands to show appreciattion to their wives.
It's not all work and drudgery for the women. And with all joking about aishes chayil, it says it all just look at the end. What does an aishes chayil get? More and more and more praise from her loved ones. Kumo bonehu vayasruha ba'alo vayhalelo. Rabos Bonos Uso Chayil Veat ulees al kulono.
"Darling, You beat them ALL!"
I've been putting on makeup and perfume for my dh every day for the last few weeks. I wasn't feeling well last night and today but when I knew he was on his way I showered and put on my makeup even though I knew he would only be home for a few minutes. He asked me if I was going out and I said I wasn't but wanted to feel good about myself. He was pleased with that. The reason for it is that our Rav told me that it would help my marriage.
I really respect people who do this. I don't understand those who mock it, though I wish I had the strength to do it consistently myself. I absolutely believe it can help a marriage. Right now I'm at the point where I'm working on greeting my husband with a smile and not letting myself become catatonic when I get home after a long day.
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