My grandparents have those tiny trashcans in plastic that you put on the table. You put bones etc in it. I have never seen it outside of Israel.
For info my grandma is very into beautiful tables and eidel manners, and she likes this anyway.
Ok edit! DH says very common in italy, even in hotels & restaurants!
My grandparents have those tiny trashcans in plastic that you put on the table. You put bones etc in it. I have never seen it outside of Israel.
For info my grandma is very into beautiful tables and eidel manners, and she likes this anyway.
Ok edit! DH says very common in italy, even in hotels & restaurants!
The thing for bones and garbage at the middle of the table Ruchel is called a "kolboinik" on kibbutz and that's the only place I have ever seen it.
The idea is that people at the table during a meal (like between courses clearing off plates) don't really have to be privy to the entire garbage can, often with smelly garbage already in it from the previous meal earlier in the day or from peel from vegetables from the salad that were just peeled before the meal and tossed in the garbage), don't have to sit there and have the stink of the old peels or whatever waft in their nose while they are waiting for their next course. Yuk.
Same with the bowl in the middle of the table. Why would anyone think that it is conducive to one's appetite to sit across from an UNCOVERED bowl in the center of the table on which people are depositing their half eaten bones or gristle or leftover rice or whatever? Would you want to stand across from an open trash bin eating your dinner??
As for stacking, I was taught and my kids were taugth and my mother was taught and my mother in law and sisters in law were taught that it is uncouth to stack dishes at the table. You take them off one by one into the kitchen. What you do in the kitchen behind closed doors away from the table is no one's business. If you want to stack there in the sink after cleaning the debris from the plate into the garbage, that's your business. But then you can also run each plate lightly under water while stacking it in the sink, which makes for a much neater cleanup.
However to stack china (we aren't talking disposables here ) at the table, then you have to also scrape the plates at the table and everyone has to sit and watch everyone's garbage being scraped? Not my idea of a shabbos atmosphere and obviously other people agree because there are lots of families who clear off the plates one by one or two at a time but unstacked. Just for that reason. Because garbage isn't something that is "done" at a shabbos table.
The idea is that food is brought out cooked and as soon as the food is eaten the plates with the debris is removed. In our house we never bench with dirty plates on the table. Ever. Not during the week either. The atmosphere for benchen has to be one of kedusha and it is difficult to feel such an atmosphere when you have a plate with bones, leftover food, and a dirty napkin in front of you.
The thing for bones and garbage at the middle of the table Ruchel is called a "kolboinik" on kibbutz and that's the only place I have ever seen it.
The idea is that people at the table during a meal (like between courses clearing off plates) don't really have to be privy to the entire garbage can, often with smelly garbage already in it from the previous meal earlier in the day or from peel from vegetables from the salad that were just peeled before the meal and tossed in the garbage), don't have to sit there and have the stink of the old peels or whatever waft in their nose while they are waiting for their next course. Yuk.
Same with the bowl in the middle of the table. Why would anyone think that it is conducive to one's appetite to sit across from an UNCOVERED bowl in the center of the table on which people are depositing their half eaten bones or gristle or leftover rice or whatever? Would you want to stand across from an open trash bin eating your dinner??
As for stacking, I was taught and my kids were taugth and my mother was taught and my mother in law and sisters in law were taught that it is uncouth to stack dishes at the table. You take them off one by one into the kitchen. What you do in the kitchen behind closed doors away from the table is no one's business. If you want to stack there in the sink after cleaning the debris from the plate into the garbage, that's your business. But then you can also run each plate lightly under water while stacking it in the sink, which makes for a much neater cleanup.
However to stack china (we aren't talking disposables here ) at the table, then you have to also scrape the plates at the table and everyone has to sit and watch everyone's garbage being scraped? Not my idea of a shabbos atmosphere and obviously other people agree because there are lots of families who clear off the plates one by one or two at a time but unstacked. Just for that reason. Because garbage isn't something that is "done" at a shabbos table.
The idea is that food is brought out cooked and as soon as the food is eaten the plates with the debris is removed. In our house we never bench with dirty plates on the table. Ever. Not during the week either. The atmosphere for benchen has to be one of kedusha and it is difficult to feel such an atmosphere when you have a plate with bones, leftover food, and a dirty napkin in front of you.
It's all in what one is used to.
Neither do we. The table is pristine by the time we get to birkat hamazon. I usually even whisk off the tablecloth and put on a fresh one. Yes, shocking, I know, right beside the guests. However, we aren't in 19th century England and we aren't aristocracy and we don't have a full time maid.
I do agree with you about the garbage can bit though, if I bring a garbage bag it's ALWAYS empty and I usually only do it with family. As for the rest....I'd rather stack and have guests privvy to a bit of garbage than have them not be privvy to my company at all.
Saw it IS a big deal in a family whose values are those that the ba'al habayis starts first. Could be that in certain situations the father will be helping the mother serve, but in my world and that of my children no one would dare take a bite, even if told to do so, until the ba'al habayis is sitting down and starts to eat. Same BTW goes for the ba'alas habayis sitting down, unless like me, she never sits down during the meal and is always either in the kitchen and only sits for washing and benching. But that's a personal thing, it's all kibbud horim and especially kibbud of ba'al habayis in many homes.
Its a big deal because you make it a big deal. You create a false sense of honor in it.
My family doens't believe in this ridiculousness. I respect my mother tremendously. Not just because I have to, because I want to. I don't need fake respect from my kids, I want them to respect me for who I am and what I do. People always commented to my mother that her kids have the most respect for their grandparents of anyone they knew.
Respect and honor are not always tangible and forcing "honor" creates a false sense of honor.
There are halachos to create respect, or at worst mimic it if it is no there. Sefer hachinuch says it is more for the child's sake that these laws exist and we shouldnt disregard them, or even waive due honors (we need to ask what they are by us) "quickly".
We should also discuss what is quickly with a rav. Lol
Saw why "ridiculousness"? Why the value judgement? There are whole societies - and many on this thread have said the same - that no matter what is going on the father is ALWAYS offered first and everyone waits until either HE takes the first bite or tells everyone to eat. But the authority comes from the FATHER.
You may not like it, but to revile it as you are doing is a slap in the face to millions of families, Jewish famiilies, frum and traditional families, who live like that and for whom this is a paramount expression of kibbud av.
I'd like to find a rov of ANY kind - charedi rov, chassidish rebbe, orthodox rov, conservadox rabbi, conservative rabbi, reform rabbi or reconstructionist rabbi even - who will term giving a father first, and waiting for him to begin eating or give permission for others to begin before him as "ridiculousness" and not term it a sign of RESPECT.
I never stack dishes. Why would I make the back of the plates just as hard to clean as the front of the plates? (I also stopped using dishes, disposables are my favorite type of dishes. )
I bring a garbage can to the table when it's clearing time only if we have no guests. It is kinda gross to bring a garbage to the eating area. Sometimes I'll bring a small empty shopping bad to collect the garbage in quickly and then bring it right back to the kitchen.
I told my husband about women bringing a garbage pail all the way to the table to take off trash during the meal while people were still sitting there and he is horrified.
As he repeated, that has nothing to do with religion or frumkeit, that's just plain bad table manners!
So, I'm bashing back. Horrible disgusting and unsanitary!
I told my husband about women bringing a garbage pail all the way to the table to take off trash during the meal while people were still sitting there and he is horrified.
As he repeated, that has nothing to do with religion or frumkeit, that's just plain bad table manners!
So, I'm bashing back. Horrible disgusting and unsanitary!
I'll repeat again that I am not one of those who bring a garbage pail (only an EMPTY bag or empty supermarket plastic bag, and generally when it's just family) -- but I think it's far worse table manners for the hostess not to sit an entire meal than for her to bring out the garbage pail.
Of course, it's all cultural. But I'm pretty sure that if you asked any Miss Manners representative of old-fashioned manners, she'd tell you it's pretty unpleasant for the hostess not to spend most of the meal with her guests.
I told my husband about women bringing a garbage pail all the way to the table to take off trash during the meal while people were still sitting there and he is horrified.
As he repeated, that has nothing to do with religion or frumkeit, that's just plain bad table manners!
So, I'm bashing back. Horrible disgusting and unsanitary!
I'll repeat again that I am not one of those who bring a garbage pail (only an EMPTY bag or empty supermarket plastic bag, and generally when it's just family) -- but I think it's far worse table manners for the hostess not to sit an entire meal than for her to bring out the garbage pail.
Of course, it's all cultural. But I'm pretty sure that if you asked any Miss Manners representative of old-fashioned manners, she'd tell you it's pretty unpleasant for the hostess not to spend most of the meal with her guests.
I have to agree with table here. How horrible is it that a wife/mother is not at the shabbat table? That is juts really bad. I know that no matter how long our shabbat meals were growing or now, we were ALL present for the whole thing.
As for bringing a garbage can or an empty bag, can you please explain what is unsanitary about that? And I will have you know that my husband does this almost every shabbat meal. its just an easier clean up.
In my world garbage is not dealt with at the table. Debris, bones, gristle from people's mouths, dirty napkins that have whatever in them, leftover rice, pieces of salad etc. - all on a plate - get whisked off the table as is, when the person is done eating, to be dealt with in the kitchen. Just like the food isn't prepared at the table as well.
The "processes" are not done in front of the diners, not the "before process" and not the "after process" and certainly not during the meal itself. That is similar to the rashi about why the Ribono shel olam put odom harishon to sleep when he took chava out of his rib. The same way that the roman princess asked that and one of chazal said to her to take the meat you are going to serve your husband and do the whole preparation in front of him including wrapping it in ashes and rolling it on all sorts of surfaces etc. before roasting..and when she did, and the husband was served the food he shuddered and was revulsed from the beautiful piece of meat, remembering the preparation.
Same here, the preparation is no one's business. And neither is the clean off nitty gritty process.
As for the garbage pail in particular, garbage pails are notoriously not clean and not sanitary. Would anyone eat food that had fallen into one? They often smell, and if this is after a meal, then the peels from everything prepared for that meal are sitting in that garbage and have begun to smell like garbage! Why in the world would anyone want to bring a garbage pail like that next to a table where people are sitting and eating? It's almost like having an open toilet bowl with waste products sitting uncovered next to your table - waste and waste.
Would you want to eat next to that? Would you want that brought to the table, particularly with waste in it? Then why do you want your kitchen waste to be brought to the table while people are still sitting there, not only guests but family? And especially if it is between courses and you expect them to have appetite to continue to eat?
Even chazal showed that the processes are better kept under wraps and not out in the dining area right before (or after) the meal.
In my world garbage is not dealt with at the table. Debris, bones, gristle from people's mouths, dirty napkins that have whatever in them, leftover rice, pieces of salad etc. - all on a plate - get whisked off the table as is, when the person is done eating, to be dealt with in the kitchen. Just like the food isn't prepared at the table as well.
The "processes" are not done in front of the diners, not the "before process" and not the "after process" and certainly not during the meal itself. That is similar to the rashi about why the Ribono shel olam put odom harishon to sleep when he took chava out of his rib. The same way that the roman princess asked that and one of chazal said to her to take the meat you are going to serve your husband and do the whole preparation in front of him including wrapping it in ashes and rolling it on all sorts of surfaces etc. before roasting..and when she did, and the husband was served the food he shuddered and was revulsed from the beautiful piece of meat, remembering the preparation.
Same here, the preparation is no one's business. And neither is the clean off nitty gritty process.
As for the garbage pail in particular, garbage pails are notoriously not clean and not sanitary. Would anyone eat food that had fallen into one? They often smell, and if this is after a meal, then the peels from everything prepared for that meal are sitting in that garbage and have begun to smell like garbage! Why in the world would anyone want to bring a garbage pail like that next to a table where people are sitting and eating? It's almost like having an open toilet bowl with waste products sitting uncovered next to your table - waste and waste.
Would you want to eat next to that? Would you want that brought to the table, particularly with waste in it? Then why do you want your kitchen waste to be brought to the table while people are still sitting there, not only guests but family? And especially if it is between courses and you expect them to have appetite to continue to eat?
Even chazal showed that the processes are better kept under wraps and not out in the dining area right before (or after) the meal.
Just wanted to let you know that there are people out there, most of the frum south african (namely Johannesburg) community that I got to know that have a small side plate at each person's place setting just for those unwanted things on the plate - bones, peels, lettuce you dont like, whatever it is, and these people are very very very refined people. And most are yekke to the highest degree, so dont say that having "garbage" at the table is always a sign of unrefined people. Its just a different way of doing things.
Saw why "ridiculousness"? Why the value judgement? There are whole societies - and many on this thread have said the same - that no matter what is going on the father is ALWAYS offered first and everyone waits until either HE takes the first bite or tells everyone to eat. But the authority comes from the FATHER.
You may not like it, but to revile it as you are doing is a slap in the face to millions of families, Jewish famiilies, frum and traditional families, who live like that and for whom this is a paramount expression of kibbud av.
I'd like to find a rov of ANY kind - charedi rov, chassidish rebbe, orthodox rov, conservadox rabbi, conservative rabbi, reform rabbi or reconstructionist rabbi even - who will term giving a father first, and waiting for him to begin eating or give permission for others to begin before him as "ridiculousness" and not term it a sign of RESPECT.
From th woman who called large segments of the population "living in a barn" that rebuke is rich.
I think its fake respect.
I also don't understand why women should leave the table during Torah talk or zemirot. Wouldn't women benefit more since they generally learn less?
My grandparents, one from poland and the other from Czechoslovakia had bone plates on their table as well.
(And then of course my grandfather wrapped it all up and took it down to the cats
)
