Individual small plates next to someone's personal dish is very different than a communal garbage kolboinik in the center of the table that everyone bends over and throws their debris into. An individual bone plate is absolutely no different than leaving your own bones on your own plate, it's baiscally a personal extension of one's one plate.
Also has nothing to do with bringing a garbage pail (communal) with garbage already in it to the table. I assume that these bone plates which I am well aware of, are placed on the table while they are in a pristine state and no one other than the person they are next to uses them and they are whisked off the table as is, along with the person's main plate, not used as a receptacle for the person cleaning off to scrape the eater's leftovers from the main plate AT THE TABLE to this bone plate.
The issue is DEALING WITH THE GARBAGE DISPOSAL EN MASSE while at the table. Not individuals putting their own eaten bones on their own personal bone plate used for no one elses stuff.
So basically they have a garbage pail sitting on the table that is passed around to the various eaters at table height to use as a garbage pail during the meal and then put back at the center of the table? That is sooooo kibbutz only there it isn't covered.
If I need it I ask for it. Whoever has it close puts it near me. The thing is like 15 cm high, not on the ground. Kibbutz or not, apparently it is also Italian and used by my sabta who is very into eidelkeit and manners.
I scrape plates in the kitchen but I do stack. I put my china in the dishwasher on the china/crystal setting so both sides get washed. No worries about greasy plate bottoms.
I told my husband about women bringing a garbage pail all the way to the table to take off trash during the meal while people were still sitting there and he is horrified.
As he repeated, that has nothing to do with religion or frumkeit, that's just plain bad table manners!
So, I'm bashing back. Horrible disgusting and unsanitary!
I'll repeat again that I am not one of those who bring a garbage pail (only an EMPTY bag or empty supermarket plastic bag, and generally when it's just family) -- but I think it's far worse table manners for the hostess not to sit an entire meal than for her to bring out the garbage pail.
Of course, it's all cultural. But I'm pretty sure that if you asked any Miss Manners representative of old-fashioned manners, she'd tell you it's pretty unpleasant for the hostess not to spend most of the meal with her guests.
I scrape plates in the kitchen but I do stack. I put my china in the dishwasher on the china/crystal setting so both sides get washed. No worries about greasy plate bottoms.
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
Saw, I'm with FS on the whole respect thing... It's part of hilchos kibbud av v'aim, we actually learned it in schoo. It's not "fake" honor. It"s a very real thing. And part of halachos.
but is is for BOTH parents, not just the father.
Which is why in my family the kids don't sit in either of our chairs.
Kaved et evecha ve et emecha! NOT just the one.
So basically they have a garbage pail sitting on the table that is passed around to the various eaters at table height to use as a garbage pail during the meal and then put back at the center of the table? That is sooooo kibbutz only there it isn't covered.
I've heard of having a small receptacle for collecting bones and skin etc sitting on the table as a French thing. It's called "poubelle de table" (if I'm spelling that right; Ruchel can correct me if not). I think that it's not really more rude or whatever than having bones sitting on your plate. It's just a communal place for the rubbish rather than having it on everyone's plate. And it's accepted in French culture. Nothing to do with kibbutzim.
On Shabbos, I don't think you can do it , because all the rubbish is muktza and if there is nothing but muktza in the little bin, the bin would also be muktza, and you wouldn't be able to remove it after the meal/course.
I think this is very appropriate for this thread (warning: improper language, view AT YOUR OWN RISK)
Sorry, but can this link please be removed? It's not just inappropriate language (in fact the language is extremely crude) but the whole concept is offensive the way it's presented. Not everything that's "funny" needs to be linked here if it's slightly related....
yes I know you put the warning, but I think the link is beyond what people would expect based on that...
What's sad is that the link is great if it weren't for the profanity and it is just an example of how coarse things in "western life" hve becomne so common for many circles that that others dont even think twice about adopting that language.
What would have been wrong if the brilliant cartoonist and person who wrote it, would have used a different object for the picture, and instead of writing what he/she did at the end, would have written "go jump in a lake" or something else descriptive? It's all part of "chinuch".
I am horrified when I hear frum women, very frum women, use expressions that they may not even realize that to some still signify the expresison's origins such as, please pardon, this is for elucidation only, "it sucks". don't they realize the connotation? Or what about the acrostic WT* which I have seen frum young people write...don't they know that the F is profanity?
In short, it's all in chinuch and some of the things I mention, which may sound to a few of you like a 19th century throwback from a shtetl in Russia, are part of that chinuch IMHO!
Ladies, look up a few mefarshim on the possuk in mishlei "VaTiten Teref LeVeisa VeChoik LeNaaroiseha". I don't have time now, but I know that one peirush is that "Beisa" refers to her husband, "teref" means that he gets as much food as he needs, "choik" means the amount left over after the father and the sons have all eaten as much as they need, since they learn Torah. Naaroiseha is the girls of the house. The mother educates them in the value of Torah learning by teaching them to eat from whatever is leftover when the father and brothers have taken what they need.
I've been surprised about some language items as well, but not others. And I think there ARE some expressions (like your example "sucks") that we don't understand their roots...that's actually one that I use and I certainly never knew there was an issue with it. (Care to elucidate?) The other one, well, I'm always surprised by it; it's certainly NOT in my repertoire!
As to the current issue: I don't stack, I scrape near the bin (not at the table). The dishes do get stacked in the sink (no choice); no I don't have a dishwasher. I used to get upset when well-meaning guests would stack...I figured that was counterproductive and now just ask people not to help.
I've been surprised about some language items as well, but not others. And I think there ARE some expressions (like your example "sucks") that we don't understand their roots...that's actually one that I use and I certainly never knew there was an issue with it. (Care to elucidate?)
"sucks" is short for "sucks d---" and I hope that's enough to elucidate for you!
Fs, in my parents' home, a garbage pail is oftemn brought out at the end of the meal so cleanup can take half the time, esp if this is the sukkah which is miles away from the kitchen. But not during the height of the meal, and only one or two people are clearing off. Oh, and we all make sure that my mother sits down with us for most of the courses! She worked so hard preparing the meal, she deserves to enjoy it!!
You are definitely not allowed to bring a garbage pail into the sukka (maybe you meant they bring it to outside the sukka).
Also the people mentioning bringing garbage pails to the Shabbos table, having a plate just for bones etc - check with a rav because there are hilchos muktza involved here.
