And the question remains: if it's not halachic to serve men and women equally or ladies first, then why are 53% or more of frum women on this board doing just that? (see other thread). I am aghast at how ignorant imamother members seem to be of halacha.
Maybe we should add another question to the registration form for this board: Who is served first during Shabbat meals in your family? (Anyone who doesn't answer 'father' automatically banned).
So let's see what the charedi posters have to say about serving the husband (father) first, both as a sign of kibbud av in the case of chidren and as head of household in terms of husband and wife.
And table, there are a lot of things that ladies on this board do which it appears are halochically incorrect according to various groups. It's just that a lot of women, and particularly MO but not only, weren't taught and don't have the nohag of asking rabbonim. Here's one little one just as an example.
Halochically you aren't permitted to eat a peeled onion, egg or piece of garlic that has sat overnight. Befeirush SA. The way to get around it if you have cut onion and used only half of it, is to cover the cut end with something so that it is not "unpeeled". Same with a hardboiled egg that has been peeled or a piece of garlic that has been peeled. Has to be wrapped. It's not a custom or a nohag, it's a real din.
How many women here wrap that half onion if it is going into the fridge overnight?
Here's another. The SA teaches us the correct way of putting on one's shoes and tying them. How many women here pay attention to that?
Imamother is not always the bastion of halocho you know...not all women are so learned, not all have had the privilege of good teachers or a good Jewish education, it isn't always their fault either.
If they ask specifically and their rov tells them how to act and they follow him, that's fine. They have who to rely on.
The problem is with women who haven't had the benefit of a good jewish education (of any kind, charedi, chassidish, MO, etc.), who haven't had the benefit of having parents who came from a shtark Jewish background and could teach them everything from personal example (like women who didn't see their mother wrap the onion) but still don't ask because it's not their shita to ask.
So where exactly will they know from if they didn't learn, didn't see and won't ask?
From camp?! Which is only half a joke as for some that's their Jewish education!
Growing up, we always waited for everyone to be seated before eating. So whoever was serving (my mother, my sisters, myself) might be the last to take, but no one started to eat until everyone was at the table, regardless of who served. So it didn't really matter who got the platter first.
FS, growing up I was very close to the granddaugther of a big MO Rabbi. Having eaten in both the Rabbi and his grandaughter's house many times, this is what I observed. The Rabbi and his son always helped their wives served and gave platters to start the rounds while they were in the kitchen serving.
I've eaten at our current Rabbi's house and he helps his wife serve too.
Saw that's really american and very modern. Because I've never seen a Shtark MO or a charedi rov stand in the kitchen and serve unless we are talking about a kiruv organization, etc. and not be with the guests while the others, whether younger girls or boys, serve.
Maybe these people like your Rov only have tiny children who can't help yet and the wife is overwhelmed. I'm used to families who have kids in their tweens and teens already always. And certainly even ever the rov pushed everyone to take and eat, at least formally he had always been offered the food first.
Saw you are describing a situation which is alien to me. Any scenario I can try to imagine in which the rov would have to go and serve like that when there are guests is absurd, at least to me, and unimaginable.
1) are there no older children or tweens or teens to help serve? All the children are under six or seven? If so then does that mean that the rov and his wife are leaving the guests to take care of the rov's children at the table while he and his wife are serving? Doesn't make sense.
2) If there are older children in the family, why aren't THEY helping mommy serve while the rov is sitting entertaining his guests? He didn't invite them as babysitters but as part of the shabbos seuda.
3) If the guests are young women or girls, whether kiruv or other, then why didn't they offer to help the mother bring in things letting the rov either sit with the other guests or with his children? In my world that's the kind of chinuch young women get! to offer to help. Did they offer but the Rov wouldn't let them? Why? He wants them to babysit the kids while he goes into the kitchen? Is it because he is uncomfortable being alone with the girls at the table? But there are lots of little kids there, otherwise if there is just a girl guest or two and him and his wife why can't she just serve? Why does the Rov need to serve?
And the platter business. I can see it in a simcha in a shul with long tables and 80 people, putting platters down because by the time the food reaches the person number 40 on one side of the table it will take a very long time for that platter to reach mister number 40 and he can get very hungry! But this is in a home, how many people are we usually talking about at a normal meal and not a kiruv kiddush for half the kehilla? Twenty people? Ten on each side of the table? What's the big deal to bring out a platter, hand it to the head of the household to take first and then pass around? By the time mister number 10 gets the platter at the end of one side of the table how long will pass? Two minutes? Also after the platter is passed around and everything is taken it can be removed for the table leaving room for people to eat. How big are the tables you describe? I know that on ours which is narrow there sure is no enough room to leave a few platters sitting in the middle and have room for drinks and eating plates. Maybe in america everything is bigger and you have these very wide tables. Here many don't.
In short, it all sounds very American like a picnic to me and not a bakovedik shabbos meal unless again you are talking 80 people at a shul kiddish kind of thing. And even in my shul, when we have events like the chossen torah/chossen bereishis kiddush with 500 people attending, no one takes a bite before the rov walks in, sits down and makes the first kiddush and motzi. And when the platters with food are taken out of the shul's kitchen to go around, the first one is given to the Rov's table and starts with the rov. Who in public, is not mochel kovod hatorah unlike at home where he gives his wife before him. In such a public occasion he takes first. It's the bakovedik way. At least where I come from.
And if we connect it to the ubiquitous "camp"...then tell me, at a charedi camp where the young boys are eating with their melamed at a table or at a "kemp" as it is called here in EY where the bochurim go away for five days with their rabbonim and rosh yeshiva sometimes, do they just "dig in"? Even in the long tables? Or do they wait for the Rov or their Rebbe to take first and only then take?
FS, the kids help too. The guests sometimes help. None of this ridiculous formality. The entire table didn't empty off.
In general, cholent was both of their "jobs" (making and usually serving) and they helped with everything else also. They also helped clear the table.
The Rav is a well known MO rav. Not sure exactly what he is considered, but not LWMO. (not that it really makes a difference)
The way you describe the rigid order is so foriegn to me. My Yekke grandparemts didnt do anything like that. My grandfather always helped. His job was always the dish washing but he helped bring stuff to the table too. He also did the meat kashering when applicable (he was a butcher).
What I've learnt from the influencial people in my life: you are not too good for any task. Its somethiing I really appreciate.
As to the platters - we do one and pass it around, but it doesn't always start by my husband. Often he's helping serve and we start platters by the guests. No big deal.
FS you are old fashioned. The barriers have broken down in all walks of life. My parents, the Americans, are as you describe. We try to hold onto it a bit over here (don't sit down at kiddush before Abba sits down, Abba takes first, don't start your soup till Abba - who was served first - sips first etc.) but ya know, it's going the way of the dinosaur. It doesn't exist in most homes.
No Tamiri, it doesn't exist in most homes in YOUR circle maybe, but it definitely exists in my circles both here and abroad. Fathers may do some things with their own fathers didn't, but as a rule the domestic is still the mother's domain, and kibbud av hasn't changed one iota. You still don't eat without offering father first or waiting for him to do it first. In my world and that of my children and their very frum friends it hasn't gone the way of the dinosaur the same way that lots of very frum and eideldik behavior hasn't dissappeared either.
In that we are NOT modern. But then again, so are a lot of other frum people not modern in this matter.
Guests are not allowed in my kitchen (unless they're tall and I need them to reach something for me).
I put everything on platters and it's self serve. Or closest person to the platter serves and people pass plates. I won't plate in the kitchen because I'm lazy (too much back and forth). If we have guests then I offer them first, otherwise DH gets offered first, then the kids.
I dunno. I've eaten in a lot of homes both here and abroad. Abroad, there were Lubavich, Kollel ect and I never saw the decorum I knew growing up. It made me wonder. Rigidity and all.
Saw it IS a big deal in a family whose values are those that the ba'al habayis starts first. Could be that in certain situations the father will be helping the mother serve, but in my world and that of my children no one would dare take a bite, even if told to do so, until the ba'al habayis is sitting down and starts to eat. Same BTW goes for the ba'alas habayis sitting down, unless like me, she never sits down during the meal and is always either in the kitchen and only sits for washing and benching. But that's a personal thing, it's all kibbud horim and especially kibbud of ba'al habayis in many homes.
I serve my dh first or at my in-laws/parents table I serve my father-in-law or father first. I have no problem with that. Sometimes there are many platters of similar main dishes and the men don't start one or more of them. That is also ok. That doesn't mean there isn't enough food for the girls and or guests. There is BH always enough food so that nobody worries about everyone getting enough to eat. I would have a problem eating if I knew that the men were eating as much as they wanted without any concern for the women and children. I would also have a problem with the men thinking that because they get served first they should have the ultimate say in every aspect of our lives.
I understand where you are coming from MommyZ but no one is going hungry, no one is eating "as much as they want with no concern for the women" but rather this is done very discreetly because the idea is that the guests really should not be aware that there is a problem. Also note, this is not a regular occurance and is a special problematic not-often situation that can nevertheless happen, even once in a blue moon. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a traditional way to act about it.
Also note, I am NOT talking about little kids but tweens and teens in particular who are old enough to be on the way to becoming an akeres habayis themselves in a very few number of years. Time then for chinuch in this matter.
Shiluach haken is also a once in a blue moon occurance today but we are still taught by chazal what one does, just in case it comes up..
I have a feeling that the same societies that are all so for "equality" at the table and not father gets served first out of kovod and where there are gender distinctions (no one is "less" only different with different chiyuvim as their torah chiyuvim are also different and so are their tasks), also may be the societies in which there are so many problems with derekh, and with parents complaining later that the kids don't listen to them and talk back more and the like.
I grew up in a very Chareidi traditional home and community.
NEVER EVER EVER did I see the man of the house not being served first. I've eaten by many in my community.
When Bubby or Zeidy came for a meal, there was the question of who received first, because Totty is required to honor them. Solution: They received their plates at the exact same time.
But I never heard of boys first. After the man of the house, it went by age. Still does in my homeas well as my friends and family.
I understand where you are coming from MommyZ but no one is going hungry, no one is eating "as much as they want with no concern for the women" but rather this is done very discreetly because the idea is that the guests really should not be aware that there is a problem. Also note, this is not a regular occurance and is a special problematic not-often situation that can nevertheless happen, even once in a blue moon. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a traditional way to act about it.
Also note, I am NOT talking about little kids but tweens and teens in particular who are old enough to be on the way to becoming an akeres habayis themselves in a very few number of years. Time then for chinuch in this matter.
Shiluach haken is also a once in a blue moon occurance today but we are still taught by chazal what one does, just in case it comes up..
I have a feeling that the same societies that are all so for "equality" at the table and not father gets served first out of kovod and where there are gender distinctions (no one is "less" only different with different chiyuvim as their torah chiyuvim are also different and so are their tasks), also may be the societies in which there are so many problems with derekh, and with parents complaining later that the kids don't listen to them and talk back more and the like.
Im sorry FS, but that is one of the silliest things I have ever read. Why are you generalizing like that? I grew up where we all (parents, children and any guests that wanted to) helped to bring things from the kitchen. My father always told us that we could not start eating until my mother was at the table. My father always took last (to make sure that everyone got something).
None of me or my siblings are off the derech. BAH we are all on very good drachim in life, religiously. And children not listening or talking back? Nothing out of the ordinary "being teenagers".
What a terrible thing to say, just because the food is brought out and served a certain way?
I have to say FS that your way is completely foreign to me.
Saw it IS a big deal in a family whose values are those that the ba'al habayis starts first. Could be that in certain situations the father will be helping the mother serve, but in my world and that of my children no one would dare take a bite, even if told to do so, until the ba'al habayis is sitting down and starts to eat. Same BTW goes for the ba'alas habayis sitting down, unless like me, she never sits down during the meal and is always either in the kitchen and only sits for washing and benching. But that's a personal thing, it's all kibbud horim and especially kibbud of ba'al habayis in many homes.
That is how we grew up. My father would always tell us to wait to start whatever course we were eating, untl my mother was sitting at the table. Before she was sitting we were not allowed to start eating. But my father still took last. To me this is kibud horim because I am doing what both parents want us to do (sit and eat, in that order)
