I remember learning somewhere(maybe someone can clarify) that the correct response in Yiddishkeit is to do without for OURSELVES but not to expect the same level from OTHERS. For example,we can do without a cleaning lady if we cannot afford it but should understand that others require it and should have it. Sorry if this point has already been mentioned- this is a mighty long thread!
So I should give tzeddeka so others can have a cleaning lady even if I manage without one? Or give tzeddeka for camp even if I've decided to scrimp and save on the cheshbon of my own kids?
No.
You have a certain amount of money you are required to give to tzeddakah. You give to tzeddakah. You give to the tzeddakah of your choice. (I don't know if it counts to give tzeddakah to non-human based charities)
After that you say "I'm sorry. I can't give."
I think preventing more children from being born into Klal Yisrael is far more of a radical and offensive suggestion than that of Jewish institutions fundraising to make day camps affordable.
I think preventing more children from being born into Klal Yisrael is far more of a radical and offensive suggestion than that of Jewish institutions fundraising to make day camps affordable.
I am one of the mothers who is currently actively preventing children from being born into Klal Yisrael and I can say it has nothing to do with day camp. If day camp is a make it or break it deal in having another baby there is a lot more going on to begin with and a heter for birth control should be given.
I'm not quite sure who you were including in your 'older women' but many of us still have little children of our own.
Having followed all of the thread, I see women from all different 'camps' agreeing (and this is the point of the thread) that it is not a necessity for every child to go to an organized summer program. There are younger and older posters, in EY and America, those who believe in large families and those who don't who just don't even get why every mother "has" to send her children away.
I can tell you that I know dozens, or probably hundreds, of kolel and working families near me some of whom send (and some don't) some or all of their dds to 'kaytana' for 2 or 3 weeks - till 1pm each day (one or two days are trips when they come home later). And the rest of the summer their children (boys up to 3 and girls of all ages) are at home. The mothers, yes, many of whom have five children under 8 (yes, I did too) take their children to a park most days. The children play at home, with each other (davka I understand much more the need for 'onlies' to go to camp, rather than those with siblings ready to play with), or invite/go to friends.
These women aren't on imamother because most don't have a computer (yup, no DVDs to stick their child in front of when they need a break) and certainly not internet. Their children are sweet, clean, well-cared for, and educated.
Many of these women work in chinuch and the summer is their only break.
Before imamother I never heard anyone whine that their children 'have to' go to kaytana (we're talking the half day kind) but they can't afford it. Either they send or they don't. And even those who send look after their children 24/7 for 6 out of the nine weeks of chofesh, and 19/7 the other 3.
They are of all ages - in their twenties, thirties and forties. Some work and some are SAHMs. Some have very large families and most have children who are closely spaced.
I have no idea why you have made this a younger vs. older women crusade here. I would say it's an attitude crusade.
Your attitude towards older women's experience also shows great immaturity (I can't believe I'm writing this to you, I never thought of you like this before). I can tell you when I was in my twenties I also thought I knew it all - it is simply called immaturity and gaiva. As I've got older you realize that you learn a lot from experience, and not only that, but I see how older women than me can give me advice and I trust them (those whose hashkafa I trust) to give me good advice.
I was just talking to my dh a day or two ago about a new situation that will arise in our house soon, and I said to my dh I will ask someone with experience on the issue because why do I have to rediscover America?
You don't have to take anyone's advice here as a package deal. But you would be wise - if you and your friends are so sure it is impossible to keep children in their own home with their own mother for a few weeks of the year - to read what mothers both old and young who have BTDT have to say about how they did that. And then choose what could be useful to you. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Children's natures haven't changed. Maybe it's the mother's expectations which have.
I'll respond to Shalhevet, because she at least won't pull the "why on earth did you have so many kids in such a short time" line on me:
So, so far, because the older generation did xyz, not only does my parenting need help, but I'm also immature.
Don't you get what I'm saying? Att: Older women examining the lives of the younger women, it isn't about you, what you did, what you think. Consider someone else's needs for a change. Other people who have different needs, have chosen a different lifestyle for good reasons. A little respect for other people's experiences and choices, as much as you think it doesn't exist under any number of years that isn't your own. It's the closemindedness and the smugness that comes with the impractical advice, that I can do without. Yeah, sure, have him rip toilet paper for two hours and if that doesn't work there's something wrong with YOU.
I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from older people, come on, I'm not dumb. But it's a rare older person who can relate to what I do and give practical advice that I haven't yet figured out myself. Telling me to pack sandwiches for lunch and go to the park, honestly- do you think I haven't thought of that? You might as well be telling me that I need to turn on the vacuum before using it. Oh, and my toddlers don't eat sandwiches, btw. And I cannot take them alone to the park because they run in opposite directions and it is plain dangerous.
I've learned to ignore a lot of this stuff IRL although it can be frustrating and decided to write it here.
I'm sorry that some are insulted by this, but it's the fact of the matter.
Secondly, somewhere it got lost that I am not talking about myself but about the average family. With one or more overly-demanding child (for whatever reason) or a mother whose stress level is filled to capacity. You don't think that's average? Then you're in a different culture and you can't compare. I haven't heard from one American Chareidi mother of a large family yet in this thread, and no wonder.
Last but not least, I keep hearing the word "whine." It would be just the slightest bit helpful if you can tune in to that whine and consider the person. Perhaps she isn't really whining at all. Maybe she's just asking for a little help. It is your choice to help her or not, but whatever you do, do it nicely.
And one more time for good measure: I have no cleaning lady and have never had one. I don't have a DVD player. I can afford camp. I don't need ideas on how to entertain my kids. I'm not complaining about having 5 kids under 8. I'm hardly unique in that position around here.
What I am doing, is relating. Giving a dose of reality to those who just can't seem to get it. If someone says she needs help, I can open my mind and allow myself to think that she probably does.
I've pretty much said everything I want to say on this topic. If someone hasn't gotten it yet or decides I'm a horrible, immature, lazy mother, not my problem.
I'm confused. I thought I was the older generation. I have a married daughter. But I also have a 4 year old. What am I, generationless - a classic?
And goshdarnit, I keep meaning to hand my kids rolls of toilet paper, request with a straight face to rip them into uniform lengths, and video the looks on their faces. Maybe they'll find this normal. Enquiring minds want to know.
I'm not quite sure who you were including in your 'older women' but many of us still have little children of our own.
Having followed all of the thread, I see women from all different 'camps' agreeing (and this is the point of the thread) that it is not a necessity for every child to go to an organized summer program. There are younger and older posters, in EY and America, those who believe in large families and those who don't who just don't even get why every mother "has" to send her children away.
I can tell you that I know dozens, or probably hundreds, of kolel and working families near me some of whom send (and some don't) some or all of their dds to 'kaytana' for 2 or 3 weeks - till 1pm each day (one or two days are trips when they come home later). And the rest of the summer their children (boys up to 3 and girls of all ages) are at home. The mothers, yes, many of whom have five children under 8 (yes, I did too) take their children to a park most days. The children play at home, with each other (davka I understand much more the need for 'onlies' to go to camp, rather than those with siblings ready to play with), or invite/go to friends.
These women aren't on imamother because most don't have a computer (yup, no DVDs to stick their child in front of when they need a break) and certainly not internet. Their children are sweet, clean, well-cared for, and educated.
Many of these women work in chinuch and the summer is their only break.
Before imamother I never heard anyone whine that their children 'have to' go to kaytana (we're talking the half day kind) but they can't afford it. Either they send or they don't. And even those who send look after their children 24/7 for 6 out of the nine weeks of chofesh, and 19/7 the other 3.
They are of all ages - in their twenties, thirties and forties. Some work and some are SAHMs. Some have very large families and most have children who are closely spaced.
I have no idea why you have made this a younger vs. older women crusade here. I would say it's an attitude crusade.
Your attitude towards older women's experience also shows great immaturity (I can't believe I'm writing this to you, I never thought of you like this before). I can tell you when I was in my twenties I also thought I knew it all - it is simply called immaturity and gaiva. As I've got older you realize that you learn a lot from experience, and not only that, but I see how older women than me can give me advice and I trust them (those whose hashkafa I trust) to give me good advice.
I was just talking to my dh a day or two ago about a new situation that will arise in our house soon, and I said to my dh I will ask someone with experience on the issue because why do I have to rediscover America?
You don't have to take anyone's advice here as a package deal. But you would be wise - if you and your friends are so sure it is impossible to keep children in their own home with their own mother for a few weeks of the year - to read what mothers both old and young who have BTDT have to say about how they did that. And then choose what could be useful to you. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Children's natures haven't changed. Maybe it's the mother's expectations which have.
I'll respond to Shalhevet, because she at least won't pull the "why on earth did you have so many kids in such a short time" line on me:
So, so far, because the older generation did xyz, not only does my parenting need help, but I'm also immature.
Don't you get what I'm saying? Att: Older women examining the lives of the younger women, it isn't about you, what you did, what you think. Consider someone else's needs for a change. Other people who have different needs, have chosen a different lifestyle for good reasons. A little respect for other people's experiences and choices, as much as you think it doesn't exist under any number of years that isn't your own. It's the closemindedness and the smugness that comes with the impractical advice, that I can do without. Yeah, sure, have him rip toilet paper for two hours and if that doesn't work there's something wrong with YOU.
I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from older people, come on, I'm not dumb. But it's a rare older person who can relate to what I do and give practical advice that I haven't yet figured out myself. Telling me to pack sandwiches for lunch and go to the park, honestly- do you think I haven't thought of that? You might as well be telling me that I need to turn on the vacuum before using it. Oh, and my toddlers don't eat sandwiches, btw. And I cannot take them alone to the park because they run in opposite directions and it is plain dangerous.
I've learned to ignore a lot of this stuff IRL although it can be frustrating and decided to write it here.
I'm sorry that some are insulted by this, but it's the fact of the matter.
Secondly, somewhere it got lost that I am not talking about myself but about the average family. With one or more overly-demanding child (for whatever reason) or a mother whose stress level is filled to capacity. You don't think that's average? Then you're in a different culture and you can't compare. I haven't heard from one American Chareidi mother of a large family yet in this thread, and no wonder.
Last but not least, I keep hearing the word "whine." It would be just the slightest bit helpful if you can tune in to that whine and consider the person. Perhaps she isn't really whining at all. Maybe she's just asking for a little help. It is your choice to help her or not, but whatever you do, do it nicely.
And one more time for good measure: I have no cleaning lady and have never had one. I don't have a DVD player. I can afford camp. I don't need ideas on how to entertain my kids. I'm not complaining about having 5 kids under 8. I'm hardly unique in that position around here.
What I am doing, is relating. Giving a dose of reality to those who just can't seem to get it. If someone says she needs help, I can open my mind and allow myself to think that she probably does.
I've pretty much said everything I want to say on this topic. If someone hasn't gotten it yet or decides I'm a horrible, immature, lazy mother, not my problem.
there is no outside place where I live. I live on the outskirts of the community. there is no way they can go fly a kite by themselves where we live. I live in a building in the city.
if I want them to play I have to go to the park.
I understand that. But in addition to Prospect Park and a state park along the water in Williamsburg that opened in 2007, the NYC Parks Department lists literally hundreds of parks and playgrounds in Brooklyn.
I'm confused. I thought I was the older generation. I have a married daughter. But I also have a 4 year old. What am I, generationless - a classic?
And goshdarnit, I keep meaning to hand my kids rolls of toilet paper, request with a straight face to rip them into uniform lengths, and video the looks on their faces. Maybe they'll find this normal. Enquiring minds want to know.
My dd would roll her eyes and say we have tissues (Kleenex) for Shabbos. My special needs five year old would destroy the toilet paper and my two and a half year old would just unroll it because he thinks that's fun.
Sounds like you should move out of the city Mama Bear! Seriously, try to take steps to move somewhere a little nicer. G-d willing you're family will grow and you'll be facing this same challenge for yrs to come.
I know just going to the park for a short bit can be too much effort but sometimes hanging out there fr longer periods makes it more worthwhile. You could try spending half days at the park which is what I did when I lived in the city for 10 yrs. We would pack tons of stuff to load up the stroller and walk to a large park (20 min walk). I'd pack food, of course, but even a towl to sit in and books for some down time in between running around. And one of our parks had sprinklers so it was free water play.
there is no outside place where I live. I live on the outskirts of the community. there is no way they can go fly a kite by themselves where we live. I live in a building in the city.
if I want them to play I have to go to the park.
I understand that. But in addition to Prospect Park and a state park along the water in Williamsburg that opened in 2007, the NYC Parks Department lists literally hundreds of parks and playgrounds in Brooklyn.
Is it really that none of our Brooklyn posters live near any of those parks or playgrounds?
When I take my three kids to the playground they run in three directions. My oldest one wants to go to the big swings that is on the other side of the park (two short blocks away from the other side) from all the slides and the baby swings. My five year old son has a tendency to wander, is unable to follow directions or stay focused for more then maybe a minute or two. I have to yell to get his attention and even then he doesn't listen. My two and a half year old also loves running away and doesn't listen either so the entire time I am there I am pulled in three directions. By the time we're ready to leave I am beyond exhausted and upset and wonder why I bothered going to begin with.
What happens if the camp tells you its going to cost a certain amount but one month before camp starts they say that they had to increase it ALOT?
This year that happened to me. My daughters camp increased the fee for her camp by $1000 for the summer, one month before camp started. How was I suppose to know that, when they didn't tell anyone till the last minute?
I ofcourse plan for camp fees but this year my daughters last minute fee increase made it very frustrating.
When I talk about the need to camp I am not talking about the average kid under the age of 7. Kids that have therapies are often in special camps or in camp with therapists and those kids often NEED camp.
I have very social children and my kids LOVE camp for the social environment. I can't make a social environment for them at home with arts and crafts.
There are families that keep their children home in the summer in my community, it is done. Very rare for kids ages 7 and up, especially boys.
Being a mom that has had more than 2 kids, I have become aware that not all kids are alike. They all have different needs. Some kids DO need camp.
Yes this thread is making me ill. I can't believe how very narrow minded people are to think that everyone else is just like them. When reading a thread you never know if the girl writing is a 21 year old newlywed that is supported by her parents or a mother of 6 that has worked really hard with her kids.
I've enjoyed reading the past five pages which were written while I was sleeping and working today, simply because I keep seeing other people write what I would have in response to things, saving me the time.
So I'll only add what wasn't said.
Gryp you seem to have a real attitude towards older people so I did something. I called my 30 year old daughter and told her about the thread, she is a mother with a husband who works 24/7, literally, most days and therefore she is basically a single mother until he finishes his residency in another few years. She is of "your" generation, a young mother. She, like me, 22 years older than she is, has never hit children. Neither did I. Ever. I read her some of the things here and she burst out laughing. So here is her "take" - word for word.
"Ma I warned you about all the time you are spending with these ladies - some of them are really on Mars. They go by some mindset that says 'you have to whatever' and then when they 'whatever' and don't like or can't cope with the results they start crying 'help me help me pity me pity me'. Just tell them to grow up already and realize what real life is all about."
That's from the mouth of a young mother. One who takes responsibility for her choices. Who could sit and kvetch boo hoo that she is heavily pregnant, raising her son practially alone as her husband is always at the hospital. She doesn't. She made her choices and she is keeping to her lifestyle and not asking anything from anyone. One who gets children to behave decently and not be vilde chayes, whether at home or at work, without smacking, just as we never smacked.
It's a different generation, it's the same education, same upbringing, same values. No more or less permissive than we were with her. Or her younger brothers. Or her younger sisters.
Interestingly enough, she mentioned something which hasn't been mentioned on this thread. Family. As she said, when she is zonked it's never a problem for us or her mother in law to take her grandson for a while, just as we are begining to take our other granddaughter and will help with the new baby as soon as he/she (she refuses to say whether boy or girl but at this point let it just be healthy) is born. All the women saying that they can't cope - no one has any family around? No parents, no sisters, no sisters in law etc? To give you a break for a while and then for you to give them (sils etc.) a break? And there I was thinking that the whole point of living in Brooklyn or whatever and paying exorbitant prices and horrible conditions was to be near family for many...so where do they come in? Or don't they?
Rambam said that the best way to help a person and the highest level of zedoko was to help a person help themselves. So to all those who are kvetching, whining, complaining, here's a word of help. Take a good look at your situation and see if there is anything that YOU can do to make it better. If you need advice or suggestions about what YOU can do, there are loads of people with lots of advice. Take the good and applicable, don't take the rest. But if nothing is good, nothing is applicable, not by one poster, not by two and not by twelve, maybe take a good look at yourself, see whether you aren't just looking for the easy way out - for someone else to solve the problem that YOU created - and at the same time see if you aren't looking davka for empathy, sympathy and vindication from the mommy or rather bubbie generation, the same one that you Gryp are busy spitting on. Hard to have empahthy and sympathy for people who went with open eyes into a rut that they can't cope with, or with closed eyes into that rut and are now screaming "hatzilu".
Ruchel- while in eastern europe people had non jewish girls helping out, that was not true at all in America. 100 years ago when my grandmother came to America the poor were poor, they didn't have any maids at all...and that is the generation of the great grandparents and for some even great-great grandparents of the women on imamother.
Also for someone living in Paris Eurodisney isn't a big deal or so far away for kids. Think living in Marseilles or Lyon and sending with a camp to Eurodisney. Now that's a different story and those are the kind of trips that some camps are offering in America, like a week in Colorado for a camp based in Pennsylvania! It's all geography there.
Isramom, you have this thing about everyone should have as many kids as they can whether they can afford it or not. That's nice that you think that way but many of us don't feel that is bringing about the right kind of Am Yisroel that we want to see - teaching people irresponsibility when we are given the keilim and the rabbonim are also giving the heterim to make us responsible and not a nation of poverty stricken zedoko recipients. Actually you know that when the great immigration wave came to America, over ten percent of the yidden who came had listed as their official profession - "beggar". It wasn't something to be proud of then and I and many others still don't think it's something to be proud of now.
Pshot neveilo bashuk and all that, as chazal said, but don't be in a situation where you have to take zedoko from bosor vodom. Your dictum of it's not Jewish to limit your family for financial reasons is totally and utterly unJewish according to chazal if you and people who believe like you aren't willing to go out and do any work and every work (pshot neveilo bashuk) mothers and fathers, all day and night, in order to support those children.
Last edited by freidasima on Mon, Jul 04 2011, 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
I have a husband who is gone for two days straight on a regular basis and when he is home is too tired to do much else besides for sleep and get ready to go back to work. I am 29 years old with three kids between two and a half and seven and a half. I also have a special needs son. I still would not ask for tzedaka for day camp. My dd is going because my parents and in-laws believe that she needs it and pay for it. I don't ask. They offer. If someone else feels like they would that is their business. I wouldn't call them childish, selfish or lazy.
I have a husband who is gone for two days straight on a regular basis and when he is home is too tired to do much else besides for sleep and get ready to go back to work. I am 29 years old with three kids between two and a half and seven and a half. I also have a special needs son. I still would not ask for tzedaka for day camp. My dd is going because my parents and in-laws believe that she needs it and pay for it. I don't ask. They offer.
What makes you think that the Tzedoka funds for camp don't offer it? From my understanding the fund is meant for families that are in great need. Be it a crisis in the home or general dysfunction and the camp is like a haven for the kids and an escape. Many times it is offered and the receiver would never have thought to ask. Isn't that what Tzedoka is? Giving privately or openly to a family in need?
Oh FreidaSima how you would love me! I had 3 kids during my husband's medical training, in the city, with no family, and no money for all these "necesities." And how did I end up? I gained such a deep appreciation for the little I had then and for what we can, bh, afford now. I also learned that I don't need to rely on anyone to raise my kids or run my household - any extra help is a great bonus but I know I can do everything myself, and with a smile. And when my friends call me a superwoman, I just roll my eyes, because any mom who can get by without cleaning help or takeout food or babysitting help while they "stay at home" is not a superwoman, just another mom in any other middle class community. But not in the frum world, apparently here we have higher standards and need and demand more than our nonfrum counterparts. They only live like this if they are literally married to a doctor but int he frum worl, even the kollel families seem to live at a better standard.
I just don't get why anyone cares how or whether someone else's child goes to camp, or about the camp thread.
If you don't want to give tzeddakah for xyz don't.
If you do, do.
If they ask and you don't want, say no.
If they don't ask but you want to give, set it up so they don't know.
If you are afraid you will get rooked then find an organization and give tzeddakah that way.
I have a husband who is gone for two days straight on a regular basis and when he is home is too tired to do much else besides for sleep and get ready to go back to work. I am 29 years old with three kids between two and a half and seven and a half. I also have a special needs son. I still would not ask for tzedaka for day camp. My dd is going because my parents and in-laws believe that she needs it and pay for it. I don't ask. They offer.
What makes you think that the Tzedoka funds for camp don't offer it? From my understanding the fund is meant for families that are in great need. Be it a crisis in the home or general dysfunction and the camp is like a haven for the kids and an escape. Many times it is offered and the receiver would never have thought to ask. Isn't that what Tzedoka is? Giving privately or openly to a family in need?
I am not judging what is a need or not a need but I am also on birth control because I don't think we should have more babies when we are taking help from our families.
there is no outside place where I live. I live on the outskirts of the community. there is no way they can go fly a kite by themselves where we live. I live in a building in the city.
if I want them to play I have to go to the park.
I understand that. But in addition to Prospect Park and a state park along the water in Williamsburg that opened in 2007, the NYC Parks Department lists literally hundreds of parks and playgrounds in Brooklyn.
Is it really that none of our Brooklyn posters live near any of those parks or playgrounds?
I do live near a park. but the pple that go to the park. no way. they are wild. throwing buckets of water down slides pushing younger kids. etc.
also like someone said the parks are really big and kis run tin 3 different directions.
about family not every one has that luxery of having someone come and watch their kids. some pple are bt's other pple have family that lives far away. or maybe they lost their parents.
Mommy Z you are right, that ISNT zedoko! That's grandparents giving a present to their grandchildren. That's very different than going out to strangers and soliciting funds for a camp. Also the term "special needs" covers a really big gamut of things which was once not called anything but just "rowdy" or really active". there are special needs kids who have physical handicaps, there are special needs kids who have mental handicaps, there are special needs kids who have emotional handicaps and there are those with a combination, lo oleinu, of all the above. And then there are special needs kids who have learning handicaps but not necessrily behavioral ones, having trouble with numbers isn't the same as total attention deficiency. Aspergers isn't the same as a kid with one leg shorter than the other. I think we all get the picture.
And all this therapy. It's wonderful for therapists, they (and myself included when dealing with psychological issues) all make a really great living out of it. But not all kinds of kids needing therapy during the year need camp. Depends on the therapy, depends on the camp.
As Tamiri wrote, we give money here in EY for camps for kids who can't afford them. Why? Because we are talking about kids from a war zone who are being shelled and can't really go out of doors much in their areas sometimes. The camps are sleep away, taking them out of an area where they have to run to shelters four or five times a day at times and in various areas, so that they can actually get a night's sleep. I feel good giving that kind of zedoko because for me it's really important to have Jewish families living all over eretz yisroel, including in such areas. I have nothing but awe for the people in Kiriyat Shmoneh who lived there during the shelling all those years, or in Sderot and other such places today who don't plan on leaving. But I agree in full that it is lovely to give their kids a break, it's my bit for yishuv eretz yisroel. I (capital) don't live in Sderot. I live an easy life here in an area that doesn't exactly get mortars every muntig and donnershtig lobbed into my porch. So this is my way to say to these families "thank you for living where you do and by doing so, strenghtening my country". They didn't ask for this camp for their kids, someone came up with the idea and believe me, no one in this country who was asked to give for it, didn't put together what they could and give. We - except maybe the far leftists -are all united in this feeling. This is our people, this is our country.
That somehow just doesn't seem the same as giving money for a SAHM in brooklyn by choice (both by choice a sahm and by choice in Brooklyn) to put her seven year old into day camp..in Brooklyn. I don't see Am yisroel becoming a better place because she decided to live in Brooklyn....
It's beautiful to manage.
It's not beautiful to get sick or depressed.
As we see on countless could I be pregnant threads here, we don't get a say on the number and age of kids. We can always try, if we have a heter, to keep it to our liking, but that's all.
I thought I was the older generation. I have a married daughter. But I also have a 4 year old. What am I, generationless - a classic?
