Slightly off topic but can someone who lives in EY clarify something for me? My husbands siblings all live there and bein hanzmanim for them is a total of 3 weeks. Someone else here mentioned 8 weeks, someone else 10. I assumed it was standard?
Bein Hazmanim is for chareidi yeshivos and kollelim, not day school.
And depending on whether someone is in a government school or a chareidi school or a private dati leumi school, summer vacation will vary. Also older kids and younger kids get different vacations- secular high schools, for example, are off for 2 weeks before the kindergarteners are.
[quote="gryp"]Okay, I get the message. Since a successful day for me is if I get dinner made and nothing else, I must be incompetent. Since my 8 yr old behaves beautifully in camp and wacky at home, I'm a lousy parent. Since I can't take my 2 toddlers to the playground alone because each one runs in a different direction, I'm a loser. Since I'd never go on a bus with a stroller, I'm a lazy-good-for-nothing.
I'm with you. I don't know how everyone takes a bunch of little kids out on outings. I have a 5.5 year old 3.5 year old and 5.5 month old and I could never take them farther than around the corner myself. I would be too scared to take them anywhere without another adult.
Another thing I noticed - nobodies babies and toddlers nap. My baby doesn't nap on the go. I could mess up his day every once in a while but I could never do it every day.
I live in an apartment in a city and everyone goes to camp. My 5.5 yr old wouldn't agree to go to the playground unless he knew that a friend would be there. The 3 hrs in the morning and 3 hrs in the afternoon are enough for me. The 3 weeks in between camp and school is usually a major challenge also.
My kids need structure and maybe I am lacking but I can't give my kids the same structure that they get in camp.
Oh, and I think that my husband wouldn't want to come home to me @ the end of the day if we did this for 10 weeks.
Growing up my parents lived in the city and we always went to the bungalow for the summer even though they had no money. They were on scholarship in school and the school knew about it. And when we were old enough my 2 siblings and I went to sleep away camp for 1 month and the camp gave financial aid.
The weather in much of EY is not "nice" in the summer - it's often almost unbearbly hot.
Like Shalhevet, there have been times (ok, she does it all the time) when we banned the computer altogether. Like when our kids broke it once too many. The result is more creativity, and way more mess. Not pashut.
Cheder boys and yeshiva bachurim and kollel men have a 3 week bein hazmanim. Kids in bet sefer have a 9 week chofesh hagadol. Special ed varies - and not all special needs qualify for subsidized special camps.
Kids of all ages need some structure, from 2 till married.
Tearing toilet paper for 2 hours. Hmm. Firstly, who nowadays doesn't use tissues for Shabbos bathroom trips? Secondly, here is what my kids' principal said at graduation a few days ago: "Parents ask why kaitana is so expensive. Why not have fewer trips, and occupy the kids with clay and scissors? I tell those parents that they cannot occupy their own children in a room with clay and scissors for ten minutes, so why are we expected to do it for 3 weeks?"
Babies may be portable, but nursing mothers are exhausted. Many a summer I didn't have the koach for tiyulim.
FS, you don't have to subsidize kaitana or sleepaway camp. But I think institutions can use funds they collect for this purpose as well as their others.
I'm a SAHM trying as much as my mothering allows to be a WAHM. I've gotten more W into the equation, but it's still mainly S.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
Who on this thread is from London?
It's too hot to go out before 5, certainly 4 all summer.
.
you. actually London has beautiful weather in the summer. It might rain occasionally, and it can on occasion get unbearably hot, but it is usually beautiful sunny not too hot weather. you can go to parks any time of day.
If you cannot afford to take trips, you don't. That's it. You do activities at home - drawing, plasticene, cooking, baking, some of the time the kids play board or card games, the older ones have hobbies and friends, when they were younger I'd take them to the park most afternoons. Those in half-day kaytana still need occupying from 1pm.
I have to say, even with half days, it's much easier to manage. Mine was in half day preschool this year, and it was a huge help. That 3 hours or so helps us both. It's not just fewer hours of activities to plan, but she's burned off a bunch of energy and now she's much happier doing activities with just us (minus playing with the neighbor kids for a little while).
The trouble really is doing it day in, day out, for weeks. Kids get bored of the same activities over and over again.
Also, Brooklyn really is terrible in the summer. The concrete holds the heat. It could be nearly the same temperature 40 minutes away but it will be breathable. Everyone I know in NYC (frum or not, Jewish or not) complains. You can't let the kids run around by themselves even if you get a cooler day anyway, which I understand is more done in Israel.
I have lived in London in the summer--yes, we got 2 whole weeks of sunshine and then we'd rush to the park, but it was an okay climate. As long as it wasn't actually raining you could go outside, and since there are so few hot days, you don't have the problems you do in NYC or Israel. Plus, the vacation is much shorter, more like 6 weeks!
Like Shalhevet, there have been times (ok, she does it all the time) when we banned the computer altogether. Like when our kids broke it once too many. The result is more creativity, and way more mess. Not pashut.
Times like those I use ice pops as rewards. If I want them to keep busy with whatever projects they make up or little pieces they need to build or whatever because it's me wanting their quiet, I'm happy to give them ice pops as a treat when they're done.
Just throwing that out if anyone needs validation that it's ok to reward kids for doing what they should technically.
Quote:
Tearing toilet paper for 2 hours. Hmm. Firstly, who nowadays doesn't use tissues for Shabbos bathroom trips?
We don't. It's more expensive and not good for the plumbing.
But my kids don't have patience to spend anywhere near that long tearing toilet paper. At most 10 minutes. At most. And my oldest really can sit and concentrate on something if he wanted. I guess tearing toilet paper is not as fun as building a garbage truck with Knex.
I have to say, even with half days, it's much easier to manage. Mine was in half day preschool this year, and it was a huge help. That 3 hours or so helps us both. It's not just fewer hours of activities to plan, but she's burned off a bunch of energy and now she's much happier doing activities with just us (minus playing with the neighbor kids for a little while).
Completely agree. My son was off this Sunday from school and we had to make sure to keep him busy -- e.g. baking cookies, I took out the bike I had stored at my in-laws for after our move to try it out. And he got away without asking for the computer once. (At my in-laws, it has a magnetic draw )
In the afternoon when he comes home from school, he doesn't need as much prompting. He's wiped out. He eats, he does homework, he might ask me for an idea if he can't think of something to play with, but he does not need to have an official activity planned every day since he's gotten most of that in the morning.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
Who on this thread is from London?
It's too hot to go out before 5, certainly 4 all summer.
.
you. actually London has beautiful weather in the summer. It might rain occasionally, and it can on occasion get unbearably hot, but it is usually beautiful sunny not too hot weather. you can go to parks any time of day.
I don't think we can relate simply because our summers are way shorter! Even if you do go to camp it's only 2 weeks.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
Who on this thread is from London?
It's too hot to go out before 5, certainly 4 all summer.
.
you. actually London has beautiful weather in the summer. It might rain occasionally, and it can on occasion get unbearably hot, but it is usually beautiful sunny not too hot weather. you can go to parks any time of day.
I don't think we can relate simply because our summers are way shorter! Even if you do go to camp it's only 2 weeks.
yes, in London no one has time to get bored. IIRC we had 2 weeks of camp or day camp, 2 weeks of going on vacation (everyone heads off to the countryside right after tisha bav for 2 weeks) leaving about 2 weeks to get bored. 4 weeks if you don't go away. even if you don't go to camp or on vacation, that is only 6 weks of hanging araund doing nothing.
"Not every child needs camp" does not mean, "No child needs camp."
"In a normal situation, a parent who is not working should be able to care for their children at home for a few weeks without going insane," does not mean, "In any situation.... (etc)."
"It is possible to live in a hot city without sending kids to summer camp" does not mean "If a person living in a hot city chooses to send their kids to summer camp, they are spoiled and weak and horrible."
Someone who realizes that their kids would benefit from camp and finds a way for them to go, whether by paying for it or getting a scholarship, is doing a smart thing. They are not doing the only possible thing. But "not the only possible option" does not mean "not the ideal option."
Disclaimer - all this was written after reading to page 8 only.
"Not every child needs camp" does not mean, "No child needs camp."
"In a normal situation, a parent who is not working should be able to care for their children at home for a few weeks without going insane," does not mean, "In any situation.... (etc)."
"It is possible to live in a hot city without sending kids to summer camp" does not mean "If a person living in a hot city chooses to send their kids to summer camp, they are spoiled and weak and horrible."
Someone who realizes that their kids would benefit from camp and finds a way for them to go, whether by paying for it or getting a scholarship, is doing a smart thing. They are not doing the only possible thing. But "not the only possible option" does not mean "not the ideal option."
Disclaimer - all this was written after reading to page 8 only.
Disclaimer - please don't take offense as this is totally OT:
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
I think the people describing how difficult it is looking after 6 children (mama bear, ronit) do not actually HAVE 6 children. Or even 4 or 5. (ok, they may have other circumstances that make life very diffiicult, but for those of us without those circumstances, things may be very different)
I have taken my (5) kids on buses many times and it is not such a big deal at all. In some ways I prefer it to driving. I avoid buses where you need to fold the stroller and try and stick to the wheelchair accessible buses.
ha ha ha ha ha and again ha ha ha
You have never tried the buses here! There is no such a thing as going on a bus with an open stroller. It is not allowed. The drivers get really nasty even when they see a CLOSED stroller & the strollers MUST be put UNDER the seats. The buses are generally full & this is NY where not too many people even notice that you need help.
No I don't have 6 kids but I've seen it enough. (my siblings or neighbors with their kids). Again, these are things that are tough on me & I am by no means spoiled or lazy either. It really bothers me that everyone is attacking women who have it alot tougher & calling them lazy.
FTR, just because daycamp isn't a luxury over here that doesn't mean I need to revamp my lilfe & move away because you think we should. There are many positive reasons why I live here. In every place there will be drawbacks & this is one of them.
Then we agree. That was my point all along, you can't make a generalization about everybody's needs vs. wants.
The people in this thread who were saying camp is a need for them don't need to be deluged with comments about what incapable, lazy mothers they are. I dare them to spend a day or two in these women's shoes and see how they fare.
But they aren't just saying that camp is a need for them personally. They are saying that camp is a need for them because they live in the city, and living in the city makes camp necessary. Or that camp is a need for them because they would have to take their kids out on a bus in the heat, or because their apartment is small, or whatever else.
The argument against what they're saying isn't to say "you don't need camp," or "if you need camp you're weak," it's "a small apartment (etc) doesn't make camp a necessity." Maybe camp is a necessity for their family for a different reason.
I think the people describing how difficult it is looking after 6 children (mama bear, ronit) do not actually HAVE 6 children. Or even 4 or 5. (ok, they may have other circumstances that make life very diffiicult, but for those of us without those circumstances, things may be very different)
I have taken my (5) kids on buses many times and it is not such a big deal at all. In some ways I prefer it to driving. I avoid buses where you need to fold the stroller and try and stick to the wheelchair accessible buses.
personally, I do have that many kids (and more kah) and I think it was much harder to go by bus with 2 or 3 little ones than once I had more, with responsible hands available to help with shlepping stuff and folding the stroller. (I don't feel safe traveling with a child in an open stroller and besides, I would have to pay an extra fare then.)
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
and seraph? Your living conditions are exactly what our bungalows in the country look like. but that's why we 'live' outdoors in the summer. only someonw with your degree of laidback-ness - Ive met you in person - can live like that all year long. it's like a prison.
I'm different because I've lived as a SAHM in the good old US of A. First with 1 I worked so he got camp, then afterwards as a SAHM with 2, then with 3 and then with 4 children. I was a SAHM for most of the time in the U.S. From number 2, when the kids were little, I can't remember them going to camp cause I was home. As they got older and tuitions rose, even if every Chaim and Yankel went to camp, we could not afford that and live debt free and sleep at night. I entertained them or found a solution we could afford. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. BTDT though not in the heart of Brooklyn, we did live in a 3rd floor apartment in Chicago. The kids went to Skokie village camps cause we could afford that. In Phoenix they mostly stayed in all summer with some day trips because it was too hot outside after 5 am.
To me, this has nothing to do with living in EY unless you consider us hardier stock in general. Also please note that most of the posters are WORKING moms who need a summer solution for their children. What, you think Shalhevet got her kids already grown up? Freidasima's kids suddenly appeared long after she needed someone to care for them? Marion isn't realistic? Come on!
I personally wouldn't mind having my kids home for the summers. I think I mentioned before that I am a wahm & we are doing half & half for various reasons.
I was only arguing because even the title of this thread is offensive.
Tearing toilet paper for 2 hours. Hmm. Firstly, who nowadays doesn't use tissues for Shabbos bathroom trips?
.
Um. Us? Should I say we tear toilet paper for all three bathrooms and put it in the "Shabbat Toilet Paper Baskets"? Or will people feel sorry for me that we don't use tissues.... Cutting toilet paper is a traditional kid getting-ready-for-Shabbat job.
Tearing toilet paper for 2 hours. Hmm. Firstly, who nowadays doesn't use tissues for Shabbos bathroom trips?
.
Um. Us? Should I say we tear toilet paper for all three bathrooms and put it in the "Shabbat Toilet Paper Baskets"? Or will people feel sorry for me that we don't use tissues.... Cutting toilet paper is a traditional kid getting-ready-for-Shabbat job.
I have small kids. I take buses with small kids. I don't look forward to it, but it's hardly at the soul-sucking, insanity-creating level of difficulty either.
Anything sounds hard if you break it down like that. If I were to describe sending an email step by step it would sound like a lot of work. But in reality, you walk down the street, fold your stroller, keep an eye on the kids for a few minutes while waiting for the bus - not anything harder than what most people do each day (on that note - a "regular" day for many people doesn't involve time to themselves while the kids are in school).
I think the people describing how difficult it is looking after 6 children (mama bear, ronit) do not actually HAVE 6 children. Or even 4 or 5. (ok, they may have other circumstances that make life very diffiicult, but for those of us without those circumstances, things may be very different)
I have taken my (5) kids on buses many times and it is not such a big deal at all. In some ways I prefer it to driving. I avoid buses where you need to fold the stroller and try and stick to the wheelchair accessible buses.
ha ha ha ha ha and again ha ha ha
You have never tried the buses here! There is no such a thing as going on a bus with an open stroller. It is not allowed. The drivers get really nasty even when they see a CLOSED stroller & the strollers MUST be put UNDER the seats. The buses are generally full & this is NY where not too many people even notice that you need help.
No I don't have 6 kids but I've seen it enough. (my siblings or neighbors with their kids). Again, these are things that are tough on me & I am by no means spoiled or lazy either. It really bothers me that everyone is attacking women who have it alot tougher & calling them lazy.
FTR, just because daycamp isn't a luxury over here that doesn't mean I need to revamp my lilfe & move away because you think we should. There are many positive reasons why I live here. In every place there will be drawbacks & this is one of them.
Interesting. My part of NYC is obviously very different from yours. I take public transit daily, and see people with strollers on public transit daily. I've never been on a bus where someone didn't immediately get up to help with a stroller. Nor have I ever seen someone trying to get up subway steps with a stroller and not be offered help.
By the way, and as others have said, I don't recall anyone referring to anyone as lazy or spoiled in this or the other thread. People have simply expressed disbelief at the suggestion that camp is a necessity for people who cannot afford it, because families living in a city (like mine) and/or with multiple kids are universally and inherently incapable of taking care of their kids on a daily basis during vacation, and that camp is accordingly not merely a nice or good thing, or a luxury, but rather a necessity. They've similarly taken umbrage at the idea, expressed in the parallel thread, that children who do not attend camp from a young age are being deprived of a necessity of their lives, are somehow underprivileged, and that anyone who would refuse to give tzedaka to a non-working parent who cannot afford camp is somehow a bad person and a bad Jew.
let's shake on that - us, too
