As for all the Israeli posters who are lauding themselves for not having camp: I lived in Israel for many years. The kids were bored silly and hung around doing nothing. Don't tell me that you are all busy making mommy camp all day. There is a great deal of hefkerus going on which is a real problem. Every time I got ready to take my kids to the zoo or pool there was a crowd of kids begging to come along. Many of the kids sat on the steps throwing garbage around. 7 yr old girls were busy taking their little siblings to the park. Yes, many moms tried their best to provide activities but we are talking about 12 hours of the day.
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Not everyone in Israel is bored silly. Tons of kids go to day camps. The people posting here on imamother represent a certain segment of society. Believe me, there are a million day camps here to suit every need and they are not out of the world expensive. Chabad camps especially are relatively cheap.
I sent my kids to 3 week day camps for years; this summer they don't want to go. But they won't be bored silly. We have a huge playground across the street. We live a short drive from the beach; we go at least once or twice a week. Twice a week I will take the five of them out for a big tiyul, like the safari or the amusement park. Yes, it costs money, but we take that into account every summer. We haven't travelled abroad in a decade and we don't go to hotels or restaurants. We do put aside money to entertain the children in the summer.
I'm not going to join the b/c debate but it is difficult to leave the house when you have babies. BTDT. Mothers who have babies every single year are very likely going to miss out on the chance to go for day trips with their other kids, with all the experiences and memories that includes. You have to realize that when you decide to have another baby; you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Why? If you are shy about nursing in public then yes, it could be difficult, but otherwise babies are very mobile.
Of course if you have 3 in a stroller then it could be difficult to get anywhere more then a walk away.
Everyone is different, I think I personally have more of a sense of advanture that I enjoy getting out of the house even when it is hard, even with a crowd of babies and toddlers (this was more true 8 or 9 years ago)
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
and seraph? Your living conditions are exactly what our bungalows in the country look like. but that's why we 'live' outdoors in the summer. only someonw with your degree of laidback-ness - Ive met you in person - can live like that all year long. it's like a prison.
Or only someone who would rather have a smaller home and getting out of debt vs bigger home and piling on the debt.
A laid back attitude helps, but priorities help more.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima
Okay, I get the message. Since a successful day for me is if I get dinner made and nothing else, I must be incompetent. Since my 8 yr old behaves beautifully in camp and wacky at home, I'm a lousy parent. Since I can't take my 2 toddlers to the playground alone because each one runs in a different direction, I'm a loser. Since I'd never go on a bus with a stroller, I'm a lazy-good-for-nothing.
I got the message. Now you can all keep on patting yourselves on the back. It makes you feel good, obviously.
Good thing I have a different opinion of myself and don't need anyone's approval.
Amother, if you have a kid taking apart several rolls, two sheets at a time and laying it neatly in a box for shabbos it takes more than two minutes. Maybe not two hours but it depends how many rolls a family needs in a 24 hour period. We can go through ten if everyone is here including all the girls. Remember these are small israeli rolls not the giant american kinds.
Mama Bear there is nothing wrong with living near family. But it seems to some of us that people want all the good things without paying for them. Literally and figuratively. The topic was not "send to camp or not" but "should you have zedoko pay for sending your children to camp if you can't afford it". That's what we are answering.
For heaven's sake of course there are lots of kids here who go to camp. but there are also lots who don't because what I described here in my neighborhood isn't unique. There are loads of towns where the matnasim work full time duirng the summer offering the kids free activities. No they don't all sit around and throw garbage, what dibas ha'aretz! Maybe charedi kids do? I wouldn't know. Mine didn't nor do their friends.
I want to understand what age group is the problem? The one year olds? The three year olds? The seven year olds? The ten year olds or the fourteen year olds? Mothers who are home should know what to do with their one year olds. There are no camps for that age. Three years old? If you are paying a monthly fee for a kindergarten and they have a sumer session it's like paying another month of kindergarten and many do that if they can afford it. But those who can't? if mommy is home?
SAHMs - since when do you think you get the privileges both of SAHMs and working mothers earning money? Again, if you can afford it, fine but if you can't? Why do I have to go to work to leave my own kids playing on their own to pay zedoko for YOU to sit home with one baby while I (capital) pay for your kids to go to camp????? do you really think that's fair and normal???
Bttw seraph, I'm curious how you went to the park with 10 kids under age 3. how many strollers exactly did you push? how many of them ran off on the street? even the preschools here (age 4 &5 have 2 teachers when they walk the streets.
Mama Bear, there are no parks close to you in Williamsburg? Why is it so hard to get to the park?
Oh, I have a dozen playgrounds in walking distance!!!!! But if you have to put togehter 10 weeks of a structured 'home camp',. you need indoor places - it's boiling hot during the day - and all those places are not walking distance. and if you want to give your older kids a good time, that means amusement parks and beaches and all that jazz. BH *I* rarely need to take the bus or subway at this point, as we have playgrounds nearby. But if I want to go to Pier 6, or Bounce U, or Klub 4 Kidz, or Prospect Park, I need a 2nd pair of hands.
and btw I am personally not compaining at all. I was just trying to describe what it looks like to do this on a daily basis with multiple kids. It's very hard. I manage pretty okay with my 2; only if I dont have to do this all summer. I canmanage it on occasion (like today, when there's no cheder). but also only barely.
Last edited by Mama Bear on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
Mama Bear there is nothing wrong with living near family. But it seems to some of us that people want all the good things without paying for them. Literally and figuratively. The topic was not "send to camp or not" but "should you have zedoko pay for sending your children to camp if you can't afford it". That's what we are answering.
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oh, I was just answering wy ppl prefer to live in Brooklyn. I BH dont have a problem with sending my son to daycamp, it's part of tuition. If I would live in a place where daycamp is unaffordable I would tink about movine elsewhere.
Bttw seraph, I'm curious how you went to the park with 10 kids under age 3. how many strollers exactly did you push? how many of them ran off on the street? even the preschools here (age 4 &5 have 2 teachers when they walk the streets.
I was lucky in that the park was next door to my house. :-D
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
Mama Bear, there are no parks close to you in Williamsburg? Why is it so hard to get to the park?
Oh, I have a dozen playgrounds in walking distance!!!!! But if you have to put togehter 10 weeks of a structured 'home camp',. you need indoor places - it's boiling hot during the day - and all those places are not walking distance. and if you want to give your older kids a good time, that means amusement parks and beaches and all that jazz. BH *I* rarely need to take the bus or subway at this point, as we have playgrounds nearby. But if I want to go to Pier 6, or Bounce U, or Klub 4 Kidz, or Prospect Park, I need a 2nd pair of hands.
and btw I am personally not compaining at all. I was just trying to describe what it looks like to do this on a daily basis with multiple kids. It's very hard. I manage pretty okay with my 2; only if I dont have to do this all summer. I canmanage it on occasion (like today, when there's no cheder). but also only barely.
NO, you only need all those places because you decided you need them.
If you cannot afford to take trips, you don't. That's it. You do activities at home - drawing, plasticene, cooking, baking, some of the time the kids play board or card games, the older ones have hobbies and friends, when they were younger I'd take them to the park most afternoons. Those in half-day kaytana still need occupying from 1pm.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
What do you call "Great weather"? Summer temperatures ranging between 85 and 115, and averaging around 95?
Slightly off topic but can someone who lives in EY clarify something for me? My husbands siblings all live there and bein hanzmanim for them is a total of 3 weeks. Someone else here mentioned 8 weeks, someone else 10. I assumed it was standard?
And for the record I grew up in America. And didn't always go to day camp. And my mother and father both worked. I was lucky to have grandparents around and remember loads of time spent at the public library, at the local playground first with my grandparents watching and then when I was old enough, alone.
There seems to be a pattern. Mothers whose kids seem to have few boundaries but can't be laid back about it. And therefore need the kids out instead of trying to give them a bit of boudaries. That doesn't mean discipline but for some kids it means scheduling. Also, what's wrong with a kid chilling out in front of the TV, video, DVD or computer for a few hours a day, it's antisocial? Ladies what about all the hours you are spending on imamother instead of going out to the local park to talk to friends, isn't that antisocial as well? Like mother like child, no?
Aw heck, just direct the kids straight to the [filth] sites. I promise you that you will have such a quiet summer it will be a mechayeh. Then all the money you save on camp you can pay me later as a therapist when your kids needs help for the traumas...but meanwhile it will keep them soooo quiet...then we can jump straight from the thread on "I have to send my kids to camp" to "my husband is addicted to [filth]" with no in between.
(can you guess that I am losing my patience with this discussion?)
Slightly off topic but can someone who lives in EY clarify something for me? My husbands siblings all live there and bein hanzmanim for them is a total of 3 weeks. Someone else here mentioned 8 weeks, someone else 10. I assumed it was standard?
Bein Hazmanim is for chareidi yeshivos and kollelim, not day school.
And depending on whether someone is in a government school or a chareidi school or a private dati leumi school, summer vacation will vary. Also older kids and younger kids get different vacations- secular high schools, for example, are off for 2 weeks before the kindergarteners are.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
What do you call "Great weather"? Summer temperatures ranging between 85 and 115, and averaging around 95?
Seraph, we all know you're Superwoman! Hope the nausea abates and you feel better soon.
Mama Bear, remind me how old your boys are, and maybe I have some ideas. Trust me, while lots of kids are difficult, having only one, who is extremely social and wants to be with friends 24/7, is no picnic either. But we still made it through a lot of summers without camp, and without a lot of outings.
I noticed something relaly striking: all of the women who are shaking their heads and cant undrstand the 'sense of entitlement' live in EY!! tamiri. marion. shalhevet. seraph. friedasima.
So you know what? this discussion isnt even handed at all.... it's almost laughable to debate all of you!!
I don't get your point at all. Why isn't it even handed? Why can't someone from EY say it's possible to look after 2 kids for a few weeks without ending up in the loony bin? You think our kids don't get dirty or fight or we don't have to cook or do laundry? I really don't get why it is relevant where we live. The reason we are all from EY (actually there are others who aren't) is because we know it's the reality that mothers here don't send their kids away all summer (and many, including me, don't use any computers or computer games for the children and we manage fine without sticking them in front of a DVD which seems to be a given on imamother) and we haven't been taken away by the men in the white coats yet.
(Oh, for the record, my boys are in cheder except for bein hazemanim, one dd is going to BY kaytana which is half-day for the first 2.5 weeks and the older girls have the BY activities I mentioned earlier. And I'm a WAHM.)
because you have great outdoors. because you hae a great bus system. becuse you have nice weathers most of summer. try doing all that wit the typical gray london rainy days, for instance. kids in israel go out to play. you have playgrounds EVERYWHERE. it's a laid back lifestyle. it's very different.
Who on this thread is from London?
It's too hot to go out before 5, certainly 4 all summer.
The argument about the playgrounds is ridiculous. Are you listening to FS? She keeps on saying you can't have everything. You said you live in Brooklyn so you can get babysitting from your relatives, are near your family etc. So you make the choice. So don't kvetch that you live somewhere where there are no playgrounds and you "have" to go to a bungalow (do you do that as well as camp?). You have pros and cons of where you live, no one is holding a gun to your head. Maybe you should be looking for somewhere else to live that offers more quality of life.
You're welcome to come to EY. We have shuls and schools and kosher food and playgrounds too.
Mama Bear, there are no parks close to you in Williamsburg? Why is it so hard to get to the park?
Oh, I have a dozen playgrounds in walking distance!!!!! But if you have to put togehter 10 weeks of a structured 'home camp',. you need indoor places - it's boiling hot during the day - and all those places are not walking distance. and if you want to give your older kids a good time, that means amusement parks and beaches and all that jazz. BH *I* rarely need to take the bus or subway at this point, as we have playgrounds nearby. But if I want to go to Pier 6, or Bounce U, or Klub 4 Kidz, or Prospect Park, I need a 2nd pair of hands.
and btw I am personally not compaining at all. I was just trying to describe what it looks like to do this on a daily basis with multiple kids. It's very hard. I manage pretty okay with my 2; only if I dont have to do this all summer. I canmanage it on occasion (like today, when there's no cheder). but also only barely.
Not always true. I had a 'mommy camp' with my son last summer (MB, check out my FB album w/ pics of that...) We hardly went to places that cost money. No amusement parks, no beach. We went to all the parks in Rockland County, to the zoo once, he 'helped' me shop, I taught him to do laundry, we baked, cleaned, did crafts, visited family, and such. Lots of kiddie pool time. Water balloons. Some downtime. We officially finished at 2:30 when all the neighborhood kids came home from camp. This summer I need quiet at home so I can finish my course, but otherwise both kids would be staying home. Oh, and BTW, a membership to the 4 bklyn zoos and aquarium is not that expensive....
Bein hazemanim is three weeks.
Regular elementary schools in EY are closed for 8 weeks - July and August.
Regular high schools in EY including BY are closed for 10 weeks, from June 20th to September 1. Some of the frum high schools start limudei kodesh already on Rosh chodesh. This year thats August 30th anyhow...other years it comes out much earlier, like august 20th...every school is different in that respect but the other dates are sacrosanct from what I remember.
