Frustrated and Disgusted by student..NEED ADVICE!!

↑ Fox ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 12:52 pm

Barbara wrote:

Sorry for hijacking, but as parents, what should we do when faced with this type of labeling of children? We faced it this year with a teacher whose hatred of DS went beyond all reasonable bounds (including a statement that while she was well aware that he had mastered all of the material, he nevertheless was going to fail the class).

Oh, gosh! I wish I had an answer for that! I never had much success convincing my DDs' school that there are minimal professional standards that must be in place.

Unfortunately, this is exactly how parents and teachers become locked into a bitter cycle. When teachers focus on the child rather than the behavior, they are setting themselves up for disaster. The parents have no choice but to defend their child, and the teachers are then justified in saying, "They won't admit their child has a problem."

The only antidote to this kind of miseducation around is a strong, confident, professional principal who cannot be bullied by money, a board of directors, teachers who have been in the system since three days before water, or parents who are crazy.

The other antidote that is sorely lacking is hands-on mentoring and coaching of teachers. I was blessed during my early teaching days to have my supervisor in my class every single day -- often for an hour at a time. Her regular presence made it seem less like an evaluation and more like true help; she was able to see the problems (both my problems and those I faced!) as well as give suggestions. And she was able to console me when a student just wasn't reachable for some reason. I find that very few teachers have this kind of intensive supervision, and they are really left to fend for themselves.

My mentor always said, "If people knew better, they'd do better." Now, that's not strictly true 100 percent of the time (take me and my diet, for instance!), but it's a good rule of thumb in education.

AlwaysGrateful

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

I am going to write this anonymously in case my daughter's teacher is on but this board but I too have a third grader, a daughter whose teacher I no longer get along with. She hasn't been teaching for 25 years like you (more like 6) but she thinks she knows everything. Everything with her is rules and more rules, she has a bad case of yekkishness ( I'm one quarter yekke so I know it when I see it). In all the many years that my kids have been attending school she is the only one who has ever repeatedly sent home a note telling me to call her. Not once did she pick up the phone to call me herself. Of course I refuse to call her and ignore all her threats. When I got a note home how my daughter won't get her papers anymore because she hasn't been having them signed and I'll have to come down to the school to get it, that was really the last straw. She can bully my kid, maybe, but certainly not me. I told my daughter I guess she just won't get her papers and that she works to please me, not the teacher. This teacher threatens the kids into doing their work. It's just night and day as compared to other teachers my kids have had. Knowing how busy I am and how things can get at home they always worked with me and with my children. When my kids weren't sufficiently motivated they'd bribe them with small prizes but more so with words "Oh, you're so smart, I know you can do it". "Where is my handsome smart _____?" They gave them "responsibilities" in the classroom and you know what? I don't have the time to work with my kids very much so the teacher's motivation has been crucial and it always worked when it came from love.

Just my perspective of know-it-all teachers.

I am not responding to the OP here. I agree with much of what was said here.

I'm responding to this amother. So you're just ignoring all of the teacher's phone calls? Refusing to sign your child's papers? Telling your daughter to ignore what her teacher thinks because you know better?

That's a wonderful way to help your child succeed in school. You do want her to succeed, don't you?

If you think that your teacher is disciplining your child inappopriately, you have an achrayus to COMMUNICATE with her. No matter how much you disagree with her. If you don't even try, how can you blame her?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 3:23 pm

Like many others, I was very put off by the OP's vitriol. I don't doubt that this student is a piece of work, but the OP seems to have personalized the situation inappropriately.

Unfortunately, the OP has not chosen to share any meaningful details with us. What did she suggest to the mother? What was the mother's specific response? Do other staff members find this child to be challenging? How do they handle the child? What kind of behaviors are going on that could be characterized as "conniving" or "sneaky"?

One of the first rules in teaching is that we describe behaviors; we do not label them. Nor do we make statements of fact based on information we can't verify (e.g., a student's motivation or the reason why a student behaves in a particular way). Unfortunately, I've met a lot of teachers who apparently missed that class, despite years in the classroom.

Hi everyone, this is OP here. First, let me comment on this thread. Yes, my post was vitriolic, I am the first to admit it, but please be assured that a vent is supposed to be vitriolic and I do not, and would not, express myself in this manner to either the parent or the child, or to my colleagues/principal. this is a private expression of feelings. I was quite upset with the entire situation and therefore, I expressed myself in that way. Its called being upset, in pain, and honest. Its also called seeking help and perspective from others when you cannot manage to get it on your own, and I am wise enough to know when I ahve had my limit, and need outside help, nor do I hesitate to ask for it.
Of course, when dealing with parents, I reframe and communicate non-emotionally and professionally. This is a teachers room, and I felt that those of you here would understand, and in fact, many of you did and gave me sound advice, which I took.

In response to how I tried to communicate with the mother, I did try the following, and this was the mother's response.
A. phone calls in sept. , at which time she informed me that her son was, and I quote, 'not her problem' when he was in school, he was mine, and that she was 'too busy' handling her other children to be involved with classroom issues at school.
b. Going to the administration and asking them to keep their word, remove him form my class- and was told not to 'get involved' and that the child would have to adjust.
c. Trying to arrange a PTA with the mother, father, myself and the principal, which never took place because one or the other arent was always cancelling and they refused to come unless both could attend.
d. scheduling a phone conference which the parents 'forgot about'.
e. Going to a social worker and delineating the problem, for which I got into trouble for 'going outside the school' and telling outside people about this situation, as well as being told that in this school they do not need 'any outside help' as well as to stay out of it.
f. sending home ABA/Behavior charts daily. the mother ignored them, never signed them, and after 2 months, I gave up.
g. having the principal call teh mother, she got as far with her as did I.
Here is what I did with the child:
a. Once a week, gave him a pep talk about how he can succeed if he chooses to be successful (on his level of course.)Since September, on a regular basis.
b. giving him an incentive chart in class(privately) and rewarding him weekly if he reached his 'goal' (I.e. excellent behavior all week)
c. changing his seat until nobody near him was 'bothering' him and he had his space (something he told was the cause of his anger/misbehavior)
Many other incentives..and of course, when negativity crept into his behavior, tried to talk and reason with him.
Why I felt his behavior was devious is too complicated to go into here. Suffice it to say that both I, the principal, and various other teachers/Rabbeim have caught him in lies many times this year. He also broke into the closets of two of the other teachers and took some candies, etc, and was caught red-handed by other students in the class when eating them..there were many other instances such as these.

Here is what I did today:
Took him aside before class began, and explained to him that Inknow he is unhappy about something and I forgive him for how he acted yesterday, since I know that he was upset. He began to talk to me about his 'meltdown', and although I really felt he could have reacted differently, I validated him, and explained to him how I know that he was supposed to be in another class and that he was unhappy that he did not feel successful in mine, and I sympathized with him on that. I then suggested that for the next few weeks, since so many good, fun things were on the horizon, we begin again, and end the year with success. He was so happy..he lit up..and today was a very different child.
Thank you all for the gr8 advice.

octopus

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 3:39 pm

I dunno. I've worked in fifth grade and have come across some unbelievably difficult children. (5th graders are 10 year olds). So I can truly empathize with the op and I can tell you why: if the administration cannot back you up, that is a truly terrible thing. Also, the mother does not want to be bothered- another terrible thing. The chassidish background IS relevant if that is the reason that the parents don't care how their child is acting in english. So this teacher IS VERY frustrated because she is not getting any support from anyone.

However, my most difficult students, I have loved the most. I actually have a very deep soft spot for my troublemakers and kids having difficulty in the class. I usually end up loving them even more than my straight A, perfectly behaved students. Maybe there is something wrong with me. oh well.

But the mothers that did take offense to the strongness of the op's post have to realize that while maybe this teacher is taking things far too personally ,no support whatsoever from the administration or the parents have been given. How is a teacher supposed to effectively work with a child who needs sooooo much help without those nearest working together with you???!! It's almost a losing battle. How frustrating!!!! I truly empathize with the lack of support, op.

It is very possible that this child has some undiagnosed disability. In my fifth grade, the most difficult child (to the extreme!!!!!) was placed in a special-ed program the next year because he needed the smaller classroom environment and the teachers couldn't work with him, either, in a classroom of 30 kids, but COULD work with him in a class of 6 kids.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 4:20 pm

sneakermom wrote:

I am pained reading your post. More for this poor child, than you I might add. He is in a position in which he is in deep trouble, and the people around him don't have the expertise to help him - so they blame him, hate him, and "make an example out of him".

Sometimes we will come across things in life that we can't make sense of and we must have the humility to admit that to ourselves. We have to be strong enough to tolerate the confusion of not knowing, instead of attributing our own fabricated reasons to it.

This child might have a mental illness, might be adhd, might have an attachment disorder, might have a sensory condition, might be starving for attention due to neglect....etc. All these issues, are way more than a teacher is equipped to handle.

It is not your fault that you have not found an effective way to deal with him. And that is okay. But realize something important, HE MAKES YOU FEEL INEFFECTIVE. You like to have things under control, and he is throwing it all off kilter.

What I recommend is showing your little students your humanity. Show them that you will respect this child's neshamah and that you can tolerate not having all the answers. Try to be kind to this child, and don't expect anything in return. Ignore what you can't fix and focus on what you can do.

You can be a great teacher to the rest of the class. You can smile at this child. You can give this child the message that he is worthy even though he isn't living up to your standards. That he has value just because. And you can let it be. Hashem created this child, and only Hashem knows exactly what's this child's destiny.

I'm crying from this message. It is all so true.

↑ life'sgreat ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 4:51 pm

amother wrote:

Many posters commented that they cannot believe the OP is referring to a third grader in this manner.
Have any of those posters actually taught or teach children around this age?Children are children and they are sweet and delicious. But when you teach them (regardless of the age) you see them for what they are capable of. OP knows what normal third grade behavior is supposed to be like. When she describes a child this way, it doesn't make her a bad teacher, it makes her normal. She is not venting in the teachers room. She is venting here. In addition, she seems to have heard what posters were telling her. Come on, don't we all get worked up about certain things but after thinking them through never carry out what we had planned. Let her vent. As to how she describes herself... I don't know who she is and I cannot say if she is a truly successful teacher or not. BUT teaching can be very, very challenging (and rewarding!) and therre is nothing wrong with OP appreciating her accomplishments in this area.

This is more than venting IMO. This is vindictive. Many of us have taught, some with very difficult kids. We don't all live in bubbles and are aware of such difficulties.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 7:07 pm

I was quite a troublemaker at that age. I had little regard for my teachers, passed classwork because I was smart but did not pay attention in class, constantly thought up ways to throw off the teachers and liven up the classroom, etc etc.

None of the techniques you mentioned would have gotten through to me either. Making an example of me would have destroyed my fragile, young psyche (and trust me, no one in the class thinks this behavior is ok and will want to emulate it).

The only teachers who succeeded with me were the ones who DEMONSTRABLY loved me. The ones who gave me special jobs, assigned me as head of committees, gave me leading roles in performances, verbally praised me in front of the class.

Eventually I grew up and mentched out, with no intervention at all from my teachers or otherwise. Maturity just kicked in.

But I'm telling you, the teachers who gave off vibes the way you do in your posts- those are the ones who never saw nachas from me, and suffered until the end.

Hope that was helpful to you.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 7:10 pm

The only leverage you have with this child is your relationship with him, so put the emphasis there. That is crazy hard advice, I know, I relate to your frustration, but the year is almost up, and showing him you care, and want to hear what he has to say and how he feels if possible at this point can make an impression on him. Turn him into an angel, well, no, especially not at this point, and especially if there are possible major unadressed factors. You cannot diagnose, give meds, provide the various therapies, convince his mother not to be in denial, or whatever else he needs. (And keep in mind, he is sort of a "victim" if he has such big problems and the adults inhis life are letting him down by not giving him the interventions that he desperately needs) But you can be an adult who cares, and while setting some limits, practically, it's going to be a different solution and goal compared to the rest of the kids. And, ask him to help you think of a solution, you would be surprised what kids come up with when you show them that you really are listening.