Frustrated and Disgusted by student..NEED ADVICE!!

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:28 am

qtpie, your advice was the best so far. I will certainly do that, I think its a gr8 idea. as far as dismissing the advice of others out of hand, I assure you I am not.I fully am aware that what I do may have consequences in the future, which is why I was asking advice, and I do welcome all comments, however positive or negative. I guess what I am and was trying to say is that I am puzzled by the childs constant negative behavior, the lack of interest form the parents, and the consequences this may have for the student as well as my entire class. It is not a power struggle, as some of you seem to think, since I did continuously reinforce his positive whenever possible. It is more that since he is so deceptive, I cannot really understand why he would act this way, and have trouble believing him at all times. I also want to point out that all the kids in the class receive awards for something so I must give him an award in order not to destroy his self esteem
For those of you who are intent on criticizing me without understanding how it is to either be a teacher or parenbt, all I can say is, wait iuntil you are in my position, or at least a parent, before saying anything. You cannot judge a person ntil you have had thier experience..and a vent is a vent, it just helps to air out sometimes and get perspective. Many of you 'perfect' people out there who have been critical, obviously do not understand that I was asking for help in how to deal with this without hurting or damaging the child..or maybe you dont care to understand..its the same thing, really...

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:48 am

intrigued wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm amother above.
One more thing. You probably should not ban him from coming to the party. I wouldn't choose him to recieve some special award or prize. (Some teachers will do that for a child who is behaving very negatively in the hopes that singling them out in a good way will lift the child. IMO it is just unfair to the good, sweet, obedient children who try their best to do the right thing.) Getting back to the party... If you don't allow him to come to part or all, he will just hate you. My guess is it will do little for him except help him hate you more.

So suddenly we are worried if the child will hate US! What ever happened to be worried about long term damages to this poor child?? I am getting more and more shocked reading this thread. I just hope my children are never in the care of people like that.

Sheesh! Ya gotta chill. This is the reason I chose to post under amother! I didn't say I was worried that he would hate the teacher, just that that would be the only result. Meaning, it wouldn't exactly be a "chinuch moment". In terms of long term damage to the child, if the OP is posting accurately then this child needs a lot of help regardless of if he is banned from his third grade party. Although I do not think he should be banned from the party.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:52 am

qtpie wrote:

There is nothing wrong with being frustrated by a student. There is everything wrong with showing the kid your frustration and projecting the negativity onto him.

You need to look at it as a nisayon from Hashem. He Put you in this situation, and although we don't know why, it can be for any number of reasons....maybe it was to humble you and show you that despite all your teaching experience, you do NOT always have the answer or the ability to deal with every kid. Only G-d is perfect, no human is.

If I were you, I'd go over to him during the party on the last day, and pull him aside. I'd say "I know things have not always been smooth with you in the class. But I know that one day you will go far in life. I want to wish you a wonderful summer, and I look forward to hearing great things about you! I hope we can be in touch next year."

And really call him next year to check up on him.. You may be saving his life.

Trust me, it will be hard to say this to him, and you may feel as if you are loosing the battle. But isn't it worth it to LOSE the battle in order to WIN the war---his ultimate success in life?!

GREAT ADVICE!!!

↑ intrigued ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 8:55 am

amother wrote:

intrigued wrote:

amother wrote:

Being banned from an end of the year party is extremely damaging! The child feels like a failure, that his while year even if there were any good moments go out of the window. It could play with his self esteem and his drive to do well. The next year even if he is given a better chance he may not want to try as he would remember that the previous year all his efforts were useless.

Remember this is a child who has already left a school and being a Chasidish boy who has to go to a school very different then his friends and family already makes him really vulnerable.

Op I am happy that you are taking advice from that wise poster and give him that talk. It could do him a world of good! Imagine you have the power to actually make him feel like a somebody and a drive to do well!

↑ aidelmaidel ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:23 am

amother wrote:

See the above bolded. Do *YOU* know what it's like to be the parent of such a child? Do you know what it's like to be such a child?

The parents may have tried strategy after strategy, therapy after therapy, doctor after doctor, with no success. Just because you're the child's teacher does not mean you get to know every nitty gritty detail of the child and family's life - they are entitled to some modicum of privacy.

There could be any number of issues going on at home that the child can't or won't tell you about. There could be an abusive or absent parent. There could be shalom bayis problems. There could be not enough food at home. There could be a sibling going off the derech. There could be someone with a serious illness. There could be grinding poverty. There could be any countless issues going on at home (or on the school bus) that are triggering or exacerbating this child's behaviour. Any and all of these would make any parent overwhelmed. Maybe *your* life has been perfect until now, but clearly this child and possibly his family's have not. Where is your ahavas yisroel/bein adam l'chaveiro.

Have you had a difficult/special needs child? Have you dealt with any of the major issues above? Are all of your own children perfect angels?

Look at the words you yourself wrote and READ THEM OUT LOUD. As you listen to what YOU wrote, imagine that YOUR OWN child's teacher were saying them about your child. Would you trust that teacher with your child and their neshoma?

It's not about getting the last hand. It's not about perfect behaviour. It's not about the ability to write perfect sentences or know the times table to 10x. It's about getting children to love learning. Does this child still love to learn?

My only relief in this thread is that I know you're not my child's teacher this year.

If you are this exasperated with a child it BEHOOVES you as a professional with 25 years experience, to make sure he was a) placed in another class, b) provided with whatever services the school can provide him, and c) referred to outside help.

If the principal doesn't want to listen then you go to the head of the school and you keep pestering them until the child gets the help he needs. Our schools are over crowded and under staffed. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:25 am

amother wrote:

IMNSHO, the award is going to prove problematic. Kids aren't stupid. If everyone gets an award, everyone knows they're worthless. And if a kid who already senses that you feel disgusted by him receives an award, he's going to feel even worse than he already does.

I understand that you may be between a rock and a hard place, if the school requires this, but do tread carefully. Try to find somewhere that he really did shine. If he asked interesting questions, even if he did it in a smart alec way. Or if he was the best kickball player. Whatever it was.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:41 am

gryp wrote:

Put it this way: Raise your hand if you remember your elementary school teachers, which were nice to you and which weren't. Which ones encouraged your best and which ones didn't? Is there a parallel there?
For me there is, definitely.

Yeah, but this isn't about being nice or not. OP has said a few times that she does try to be positive, compliment the child, etc.

But people are criticizing her anyway, for thinking negative thoughts about him. Because apparently it's not enough to just work with children, or just be nice to the children you work with, or just try every single thing you can think of to improve their behavior - you have to think that each and every single one is a special wonderful snowflake even inside your own head, no criticism allowed.

Don't get me wrong, it would be wonderful if each teacher would love every child all the time. I just think it's not the kind of thing people should criticize someone for not doing, especially if they haven't spent more than two decades of their life in the overworked, underpaid field that is teaching. Realistically, if we only let people teach our kids if they can guarantee that they will never, ever dislike a child at any point no matter how bad his or her behavior - we will have so few teachers left that there will be something like 10,000 kids per class, which won't be any good for anyone.

None of this is directed at you btw - I think your posts to OP were not harsh, and were hopefully helpful.

↑ aidelmaidel ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:50 am

ora_43 wrote:

gryp wrote:

I'm sorry but children can most definitely sense when a teacher doesn't like them, even if they're polite on the outside. My daughter was THREE years old and when I would ask her how her day was, she would answer "Morah B doesn't like me." The Morah definitely didn't like her and told us as such. We would up moving classrooms and it was the best thing ever. At least that teacher had the sense to know she couldn't or wasn't willing to be the right teacher for my child. (She also had been teaching for 25+ years)

↑ gryp ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 9:54 am

I personally don't agree with either side. This thread exemplifies the communication gap between parents and teachers and it would be nice if every school had a person appointed to be the in-between.

As horrible as it sounds to be so frustrated with a child that you can't think of a single positive thing he's done, I know what that feels like. I'm not proud of it, but it's part of life, and you do your best to try and change it.

I also think people are kinda pretending that there are 0 children who fall through the cracks every school year, are promoted even though they still haven't learn to read or write, they don't belong in that kind of school to begin with, and they can't repeat back a single thing the class has learned that year. It's shocking for parents to hear that it goes on but if you're involved in a school, it's no secret.

Parents can only look out for their own kids to make sure they aren't slipping through but if you've got a bunch of kids, we're only human.

My point of the post you quoted, was a message to the teachers on here: How do you want to be remembered 20 years down the line by adults?

Like my 3rd grade teacher who made so much fun of a girl in my class that nobody wanted to play with her?
Like my 2nd grade teacher who went on maternity leave and everyone in my class gave a huge sigh of relief when she was gone?
Like my 1st grade teacher who was always smiling at us and we worshipped her?
Like my 4th grade teacher who would embarrass us completely if we got an answer wrong?

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:03 am

ora_43 wrote:

gryp wrote:

Teachers are human and cannot like every child. But look at the words she used. She is *disgusted* by the child. He has a *giant chip on his shoulder* His mother *denie[s] ... reality* He *constant[ly] lies* He is *conniving* He is *dishonest* and *sneaky ... in all situations* She is sure he will *end up in trouble* Although her principal has asked her to be positive with him, she finds it *impossible* due to his many perceived faults. This goes well beyond garden variety dislike. I cannot imagine how a student, facing that level of vitriol from a teacher, must feel. A teacher who feels this way about a student should do the right thing and have him transferred to a different class. Which, reading between the lines, is what the parents wanted.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:05 am

aidelmaidel wrote:

Sometimes yes, but I don't think always. It depends on how deep and lasting the dislike is, which is hard to tell from a single vent. A LOT of teachers (and doctors, and nurses, and social workers, and caretakers, etc) sometimes complain about the people they work with, and I don't think their frustration really always comes across. Some of the teachers I know find that they are their least favorite students' favorite teacher.

But even if the child can tell - does that make the teacher a bad person? Or just imperfect?

I don't think it can be assumed that a teacher who's at her current workplace for less than a year will have the ability to get a kid switched to a different class, or to go over the principal's head. Especially if, unlike in your case, the mother has no interest in making any changes.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:16 am

ora_43 wrote:

aidelmaidel wrote:

Ora, according to the first post, the parents were promised that the child would be in a different class, and the school failed to honor its commitment. So the parents clearly are interested in making changes.

↑ aidelmaidel ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:27 am

ora_43 wrote:

aidelmaidel wrote:

Look not everyone is the right shliach for everyone. We had an allergist we went to see. The allergist we loved. But her assistant nurse, who did the testing was ALWAYS NASTY to us. There would be 3 patients in the room waiting for results for skin tests, and she would smile at each of the other patients but scowl at us and be rude to us. Even after speaking to the doctor, this nurse continued with this behaviour. Maybe she doesn't like frum jews, maybe she doesn't like fat people, I don't know what her problem was, but that made me leave that practice.

It behooves a professional to state when they can not be of service to someone because of their own personal feelings. As a shadchan, more then once I've had to tell people that they should look to other shadchanim because I didn't think I was going to be able to help them. I did not tell them why, just that I didn't feel I was the right shliach for their shidduch. (FTR these were people whose personalities clashed with mine, or were unreponsive to phone calls/emails, etc.)

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 10:31 am

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

That would make it even less the teacher's fault that the student wasn't transferred, no? If the school already considered putting him elsewhere and decided not to.

But she did say that when she spoke to his mother, the mother didn't say "let's try a different class" or anything of the kind. It doesn't sound like the parents have been making efforts to get their child switched, even if they originally wanted him elsewhere.

Schools almost never allow parents to request changes once the year start. Trust me, I've tried.

Fox ↓

Wed, Jun 01 2011, 11:38 am

Barbara wrote:

I taught for over 16 years and spent time as an administrator after that, including almost a decade teaching inner city students. I've also had a child who was "challenging," to say the least.

Like many others, I was very put off by the OP's vitriol. I don't doubt that this student is a piece of work, but the OP seems to have personalized the situation inappropriately.

Unfortunately, the OP has not chosen to share any meaningful details with us. What did she suggest to the mother? What was the mother's specific response? Do other staff members find this child to be challenging? How do they handle the child? What kind of behaviors are going on that could be characterized as "conniving" or "sneaky"?

One of the first rules in teaching is that we describe behaviors; we do not label them. Nor do we make statements of fact based on information we can't verify (e.g., a student's motivation or the reason why a student behaves in a particular way). Unfortunately, I've met a lot of teachers who apparently missed that class, despite years in the classroom.

For anyone for whom the difference is not clear, let me give an example:

Quote:

APPROPRIATE: Chaim Yankel often tells me that he has completed his homework, but when I ask him to turn it in, he then tells me that it was lost or that he forgot it at home. This happened on Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday of last week.

INAPPROPRIATE: Chaim Yankel doesn't care anything about doing his homework! Then he lies to me, telling me he completed it when he obviously didn't

Quote:

APPROPRIATE: Yesterday Chaim Yankel became frustrated when I didn't call on him immediately, and he called me a "stupid witch" in a voice loud enough to be heard by all his classmates.

INAPPROPRIATE: Chaim Yankel is completely chuztpadik and disrespectful in class! His behavior is completely inexcusable.

While I understand that this was a vent, I would urge the OP to re-state the facts of the case in a professional manner. This would bolster her credibility with all of us, I believe, and would probably lead to more helpful feedback on everyone's part.