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-> Parenting our children
-> School age children
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chaylizi
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Fri, Nov 06 2009, 11:08 am
marina wrote: | Quote: | Its not about the kid feeling "out of sorts" because he has a tv, but rather, the kid's parents dont want their kids exposed to those ideas, like superheros, inappropriate topics, and bad language. The difference between candy bars and tv is that candy bars are related to health and tv is related to neshamos, but you arent sending your kids to that school for the school to ensure their health and nutrition (though that would be an added benefit), you're sending them there for the school to ensure the health of their neshamos |
All I'm saying is that kids are not going to be "confused" just because there is a different standard between school and home on this issue just like they aren't confused when there are different standards on other issues. |
my halacha teacher in high school made the following disclaimer at the beginning of every school year: I realize that everyone has different minhagim at home & that I cannot possibly cover (or even know) what you all individually do in your own homes. so ftr you are responsible to know what I teach in class for tests. if you have a question as to what you actually do, please ask your father or your LOR. Do not raise your hand every 40 seconds & say, but Rabbi X, we don't do that.
We are chassidish & dd goes to Bais Yaakov. It is harder to have that conversation with my 1st grader, but we do have some kind of communication that her teacher is her teacher & she has to respect her. But at home, we do what Tatty says.
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amother
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Fri, Nov 06 2009, 11:37 am
chavamom wrote: | amother wrote: |
But you go to a city like St. Louis, Minneapolis, Denver, San Diego, Atlanta, (and I might be wrong about some of these, just what I have heard), where yes, there is a frum population, yes there are schools and shuls and even restaurants. But there is litereally one school to choose from and no other option. |
Most of those places have more than one school, though not anything like the choices in NYC. St. Louis, Denver and Atlanta are on an entirely different level than San Diego and Minneapolis. |
with regard to the place I am referring to (my cousins school, and we are quite familiar with their particular situation and their community), the choices are:
community high school that is geared toward secular jews. ie. no rules re: kosher food in lunches, sports events scheduled on saturdays, no dress code, etc.
all girls school
all boys school
that is it.
this is a situation where I am saying, it is absurd for a school to "impose" rules on the familes - they truly have no other choice. and so all that ends up happening is that lots of parents (not just my cousin) end up signing papers that say "yea yea, we dont have a tv" but then do anyway, and make sure their kids keep their mouths shut. because they dont have anywhere else to send, and this IS the lifestyle they live.
IF OTOH, there was ONE more school to choose from - take Cleveland as an example - there is a more non religious co-ed high school - that is not an option, and then, AFAIK, there are TWO choices for girls - BY or Yavneh, thats a different story. if BY wants to say "you must blah blah blah," if a parent says we dotn want to - great, you are left with yavneh as an option. they might be more accepting. in this particular community I am referring to, there are NOT two options. My cousins (obviously) do not consider a school where the kids do not keep kosher, and "judaic studies" consists of a "rabbi" (of a reform temple mind you) teaching lessons in the talmud, an option. it is as much an option as public school.
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chavamom
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Fri, Nov 06 2009, 11:43 am
I only mention it b/c I'm in St. Louis. Here, the "community school" is full of shomer shabbos kids. The ones who don't keep kosher and want to be in a Jewish day school either go to the Reform day school or Schechter. I didn't even bring those into the equation. There is then the "frummer" school that is separate boys and girls. No rules about TV, at least at this point, but I understand that the new yeshiva (high school) does have such a policy.
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shalhevet
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 1:32 pm
marina wrote: | Quote: | Its not about the kid feeling "out of sorts" because he has a tv, but rather, the kid's parents dont want their kids exposed to those ideas, like superheros, inappropriate topics, and bad language. The difference between candy bars and tv is that candy bars are related to health and tv is related to neshamos, but you arent sending your kids to that school for the school to ensure their health and nutrition (though that would be an added benefit), you're sending them there for the school to ensure the health of their neshamos |
All I'm saying is that kids are not going to be "confused" just because there is a different standard between school and home on this issue just like they aren't confused when there are different standards on other issues. |
I think both Seraph and I have explained that this is nothing to do with confused - it's to do with children talking/ playing with children who are going to discuss/ play out things that I don't want my child to know about. And in a community like mine there are another 20 or 25 parents who also don't want their children hearing about it. It's different to hear 'There's a character on TV/ books etc called Spiderman' and have a child role play chasing after the criminals and pull out a gun or whatever.
Quote: | If you really think that one kid talking about spiderman is going to be metameh all the rest of the children and corrupt their souls, that's your perrogative as a parent. But frankly, I really don't see all that much difference between this and the mom who thinks any child who eats junkfood will be a bad influence. |
Firstly, I believe watching TV/ internet etc doesn't influence (just) a child's knowledge, but also their behaviour, fantasy games etc, which instils certain values into other children.
Secondly, I would understand if some parents got together and opened a healthy school with no junk food allowed etc. Since I haven't heard of this happening I can only assume there aren't enough parents in any particular place who think it's so paramount.
Quote: | Would you send your child to a school if the class had a kid whose family didn't keep CY/PY/KY? Won't that child, talking about what he ate at home, be a terrible influence? |
PY isn't halacha - it's lechatchilla. What's KY?
No, I don't think it matters as long as the school has a policy of making any food served/ distributed at the school meets the strictest standards.
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Seraph
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 2:10 pm
KY= kemach yoshon, I assume.
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Imaonwheels
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 4:31 pm
There is major confusion of the rule of parents and hanhala. Hanhala sets school policy, period. It is more than presumptious to say we don't agree with the policy and will do as we please but expect the school and other parents to suck it up. Even in large cities there are plenty of people who have trouble finding an exact reproduction of their hashkafa in a school.
The job of parents is to work as partners with the school in education. You are a partner in the effort not a customer with rights. It is in the interest of your child's chinuch to follow the rules. teaching them about authority is more important than providing them with tv, internet or whatever. By keeping the consistency between home, school and environment you provide clear direction for your child and don't send the negative message that rules are always to be obeyed on the condition that I agree. There are many threads about how horrible it is when frum Jews break secular laws but then we pick and choose when it comes to rabbonim or school hanhala.
Accepting the school's rules because you must obey the rules is good chinuch. The others are right, I have found in the classroom that kids do bring this stuff to the other kids and to bring what is unnacceptable to the hanhala into the school at all is an imposition people do not have the right to make. I am not saying take your kids out and for sure not to put them in PS. I am saying that we make many sacrifices for chinuch and if that means the school that will be the most suitable partner in helping your child to become a healthy Yirat shamayim Jew then giving up internet, tv ort whatever is a much smaller price to pay compared to all of the other sacrifices, past and present, that frum Jews have to make for the good of their child.
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ora_43
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 6:55 pm
I think there's a difference between home/school disagreements on random topics, and on the specific topics your kid is learning.
If the teacher tells your child that white sugar and vaccinations are perfectly harmless and you disagree, you can just say, "I disagree," or "maybe morah chani didn't read the latest studies," whatever. The fact that morah chani doesn't know about sugar doesn't mean your child will lose respect for what she has to say about Torah and/or basic chol subjects, which is presumably what your child is there to learn.
But if the teacher says "all Jewish men are required to daven 3 times a day" and your dh is telling your kids, "feh, nobody really has time for that," or if the school is saying "a bat Yisrael must wear a skirt," and you say "no, they're wrong on that one," then how is your child supposed to take anything they say seriously? Then you're forcing the child to believe either you or the teacher, and if the teacher is wrong, they aren't just a Torah teacher who doesn't know nutrition, they're a Torah teacher who doesn't know Torah. big difference IMO. (And if your child decides that you're wrong, that's a tough situation as well).
I like the approach chaylizi describes, of a school that doesn't say "this is The Rule" on subjects where there are different rulings. But if your child's school isn't like that, and if they see things as The Rules even if they maybe aren't, I agree with the OP that the parents should really respect that, not only for the sake of honesty and respect for the teachers and others parents, but so as not to confuse their kids.
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gryp
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 6:59 pm
Quote: | Firstly, I believe watching TV/ internet etc doesn't influence (just) a child's knowledge, but also their behaviour, fantasy games etc, which instils certain values into other children. |
Hypnotherapists agree. They say that a kid watching a video is in a kind of hypnotic trance where the messages on the screen easily penetrate his subconscious. Not the kind of out-of-body trance, a trance where you look and feel perfectly awake.
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melalyse
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 7:35 pm
I agree that on things like TV that people want all of the kids in the school not watching TV. I can totally get that. What I don't understand is when there are rules for the mothers not to wear denim skirts, tichels, sneakers. How does that come into the equation at all. All this says to me is "in order for you to fit in you have to dress up all of the time". How can things like this affect a child in school? I am not talking about partially covered hair, or slits. These type of rules make me crazy.
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greenfire
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 7:56 pm
several problems is that people watch videos while still claiming it's not a tv (must be on the microwave) - people choose what rules to follow - then call the others hypocritical if they don't follow those same rules ... I.e. barney is barney whether on a tv screen, a computer monitor or any other device ...
while I feel that perhaps a school could have rules - they pertain to school ... the school or anybody else for that matter cannot mold kids into zombies and say they are out of line halachically if they don't follow blindly their hashkofos ...
all this pushing and shoving creates a reason for kids to feel inadequate and even rebel ...
what we do at home and outside of school is our business and ours alone - not everything is anti frumkeit you know ...
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Raisin
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 8:30 pm
melalyse wrote: | I agree that on things like TV that people want all of the kids in the school not watching TV. I can totally get that. What I don't understand is when there are rules for the mothers not to wear denim skirts, tichels, sneakers. How does that come into the equation at all. All this says to me is "in order for you to fit in you have to dress up all of the time". How can things like this affect a child in school? I am not talking about partially covered hair, or slits. These type of rules make me crazy. |
maybe becasue mothers/parents who dress a certain way tend to dress their kids in a similar way. I remember once watching a kid being teased in school because she was wearing tights, and was not allowed to wear socks. Imagine how you'd feel if your kid was teased or felt uncool because her family kept certain tznius rules which others didn't?
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melalyse
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 8:37 pm
But these aren't tznius rules. This isn't a matter of covered leg vs uncovered leg or half covered hair vs fully covered hair. Should someone have to send their child to a school in which most of the parent body doesn't cover thier hair at all, or a co-ed school because they think that tichels are more comfortable, or maybe even thier Rav says that it is a better choice. My Rav thinks that sneakers and tichels are fine, and thank Hashem my children's school doesn't enforce any rules on the parents, but I think that A-these schools aren't focusing on the right values and B-forcing parents to send children to schools that are even worse for them.
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Atali
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Sat, Nov 07 2009, 8:39 pm
greenfire wrote: | several problems is that people watch videos while still claiming it's not a tv (must be on the microwave) - people choose what rules to follow - then call the others hypocritical if they don't follow those same rules ... I.e. barney is barney whether on a tv screen, a computer monitor or any other device ...
while I feel that perhaps a school could have rules - they pertain to school ... the school or anybody else for that matter cannot mold kids into zombies and say they are out of line halachically if they don't follow blindly their hashkofos ...
all this pushing and shoving creates a reason for kids to feel inadequate and even rebel ...
what we do at home and outside of school is our business and ours alone - not everything is anti frumkeit you know ... |
However, I think you will agree that it is different if the children only watch Jewish videos, which many people who show their kids videos do.
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Imaonwheels
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Sun, Nov 08 2009, 12:12 am
Chabad schools in Israel, except for a very few, follow the Rebbe's ruling that Jewish education is for every child. That means registration is open and you also have non Chabad frum, traditional and even frei parents sending. This changes in HS and yeshiva but by this time parents who wanted "exposure to Judaism" have usually moved on. But the parents and school know this in advance and are prepared for it. When it comes to kids from non religious homes kids are taught they are also shluchim. A child does have to follow the rules that they are and if they truly are harmful to the other kids' chinuch will be asked to leave. But this is done with a heavy heart because their is no guarantee that these childrens' family will choose another religious school.
The only case I remember throughout dd's schooling was a 3rd grader who every day was telling the girls about her "chaver". When she made art projects she would say, "this is for my chaver" and so on. She was not able to talk about anything but boyfriends.
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Barbara
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Sun, Nov 08 2009, 10:26 am
ora_43 wrote: | I think there's a difference between home/school disagreements on random topics, and on the specific topics your kid is learning.
If the teacher tells your child that white sugar and vaccinations are perfectly harmless and you disagree, you can just say, "I disagree," or "maybe morah chani didn't read the latest studies," whatever. The fact that morah chani doesn't know about sugar doesn't mean your child will lose respect for what she has to say about Torah and/or basic chol subjects, which is presumably what your child is there to learn.
But if the teacher says "all Jewish men are required to daven 3 times a day" and your dh is telling your kids, "feh, nobody really has time for that," or if the school is saying "a bat Yisrael must wear a skirt," and you say "no, they're wrong on that one," then how is your child supposed to take anything they say seriously? Then you're forcing the child to believe either you or the teacher, and if the teacher is wrong, they aren't just a Torah teacher who doesn't know nutrition, they're a Torah teacher who doesn't know Torah. big difference IMO. (And if your child decides that you're wrong, that's a tough situation as well).
I like the approach chaylizi describes, of a school that doesn't say "this is The Rule" on subjects where there are different rulings. But if your child's school isn't like that, and if they see things as The Rules even if they maybe aren't, I agree with the OP that the parents should really respect that, not only for the sake of honesty and respect for the teachers and others parents, but so as not to confuse their kids. |
Whether or not kids are confused is the parents' business, not the schools. IMNSHO, kids are a lot less naive, and a lot less confused, than people here suggest. And if they're not ... well, then why would a kid be *less* confused by:
SCENARIO 1; Parents say pizza and refined sugar are unhealthful, and should not be consumed. School has Shabbat party for small kids every Friday with sugary snacks, and pizza parties for older kids as they finish certain set portions of Chumash or Gemorah. Child *why does the school give such things if they're unhealthful?* Parent *well, even though they're educators -- the ones who are supposed to provide you with relevant information that you wil use to lead your life -- they're not aware of current research*
Than by
SCENARIO 2: School says girls must not wear pants. Parents tell child that there are differing interpretations of Torah, and that the school is teaching one such interpretation. Your family holds by a different interpretation. At school, we need to respect the interpretation that's being taught, and abide by those rules. When Child grows up, s/he'll be able to choose the interpretation that she will follow. Parent gives child another example -- headcoverings. Some wear sheitls, some wear only tichels, some wear sheitl with something on top, some wear fall with some hair showing, some wear hats with some hair showing, some don't cover at all.
In Scenario 1, the teachers look like dolts. What kid would respect them? Who would trust them on anything if they don't bother to read recent studies or understand/comply with what has been presented as an absolute truth by parents? In Scenario 2, the kids have learned a truth about Judaism -- there are different interpretations. Teachers can easily be respected as having adopted a particular interpretation.
The school may have a legitimate interest in not exposing *other* kids to ideas and lifestyles that are not supported by the school, but that's a different issue.
Let's take Spidey. First of all, anyone who thinks that boys who are not exposed to Spidey, or other cartoons, aren't going to play cops and robbers probably doesn't have boys. Its pretty much innate. I realized that my battle against playing with toy guns was pretty fruitless when my son starting building them out of Lego. But as to our friend Spidey in particular (created by a Jew, FTR) .... Spidey comes from comic books, so I guess they're banned as well. His strip used to run in daily newspapers (not sure if it still does), so I guess they're banned as well. Old TV shows. Movies.
And if my kid has seen Spidey, but understands that he shouldn't talk about it at school, that hurts other kids because .....?
That's the point. If the legitimate interest is not exposing other kids, then deal with that, not with the straw man of not confusing *my* kid.
Our school takes the position that things at school are done a certain way, and the parents are expected to respect that with respect to how the children dress and act at school, and how parents dress and act when they are at school. Parents are not told how to dress or act elsewhere.
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freidasima
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Sun, Nov 08 2009, 10:50 am
This thread is a real eye opener to me.
Once upon a time BY was "normal" but I guess that was in the dodobird years when I was growing up. But in general as everything slid to the right schools also stuck their noses into things which used to not be anyone's business. The basis for a religious Jewish education was that the child was taught that you keep kosher, keep shabbos, keep a modicum of tznius (usually no short skirts and no pants in school) and no one bothered you more than that. You davened in school and hopefully were taught that it was correct to daven in general, boys 3 times a day, girls 1 or 2 usually.
No one cared if you had a tv or went to the movies and you basically if you stayed in the school system picked up the values.
Today I know schools in EY where you have to sign that you don't even have a radio at home! Or that you don't bring in any newspapers at all including hamodia or yated.
Yeah well.
As for me, live and let live.
I taught and still teach my kids that if something makes sense keep to it and if it doesn't don't get caught. Hopefully their education has been such that their values are similar to mine and our family and therefore if something doesn't make sense, it's because it is not according to our values in either direction.
As I always say, I don't have problems with the Ribono Shel Olam, I have problems with a good number of his self appointed representatives on earth who try to interpret what he wants from us in ways that probably have him doubled over in laughter or crying in sadness....(to be anthropomorphic)...
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ora_43
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Sun, Nov 08 2009, 11:49 am
Barbara--
Scenario 2 only works out the way you describe if the school tells students "we hold that girls should not wear pants." But at schools where girls aren't allowed to wear pants, that is NOT what the school is saying. They say it is assur to wear pants. Not "according to our interpretation...," but straight up across the board assur. At least at every school I've heard of that has a dress code.
So you still have a situation where the parents are teaching Torah one way, and the school is teaching it another, and there isn't room for both to be right (not if one is saying "the only valid interpretation is X" and the other is saying "no, Y and Z are cool too"). And when I say that's problematic I'm not just assuming -- I have seen it cause confusion for many people.
But in any case, that's not what this thread is talking about. If parents want to send their kids to a certain school and explain "listen, sometimes even teachers are wrong, and your teachers are wrong about X" - fine. But this thread is about parents who say "and because your teachers are wrong about X, we're just going to ignore them on that matter, but we'll lie about it so you can stay in school."
You can't teach kids to respect their teachers while simultaneously teaching them that it's OK to lie to their teachers.
So on second thought, I think it would be just as problematic if this weren't a halachic issue, but a nutrition issue. If a school made parents promise to give their kids at least one cookie a day (and a real cookie - no carob or sugar-free stuff, but 100% junk food), and parents lied in order to get the kids into the school but followed their own crunchy, healthy ways at home - that would also be bad.
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