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amother
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 Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:58 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Not in her community. People have been very happy for her and have been welcoming her and her new child into the community. No judging at all. Just love and accepting. |
Great. For her child's sake I am very happy to hear this.
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Dolly Welsh
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:58 pm
Shabbat Is Coming, there can spring up a new kind of Shadchan, using the English vernacular word Matchmaker or generically, a Hannah, who would specialize in such marriages.
However. I get it that your friend may not be interested in relating to a man any other way than the fairy-tale way.
That might be because a non-frum mindset is indeed a less structured and therefore less supported way of life. You are more on your own, mentally. The man is subject to fewer rules and regs, and he studies less. Therefore, he may be perceived as less trustworthy (fewer rules) and less interesting (watches sports and doesn't ponder Torah).
I sympathize. A difficult position for her. A bit of BT might help.
Even a failed BT marriage is better than being one hundred percent fatherless, in my opinion. And it might work. Sometimes things work.
Single parenthood may be slightly easier when there is only one ethnicity running around the situation. That wouldn't be the case here. Another blood is speaking here, and its owner isn't there to explain himself and be inspected for his strengths and his history.
I am no expert here however.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:59 pm
| amother wrote: | | I certainly feel for people in this situation. There is nothing wrong with wanting a child. But we can't always get what we want. Just because society has decided that any and every family structure is ok, doesn't make it so. The Jewish way is one woman, one man, married to each other. I don't think it's fair to the child to purposely bring them into a single parent situation. Most single parents didn't choose to be there and it's incredibly difficult for the child. It's just that nobody is at fault there, and here, you have someone deliberately setting up a less-than-ideal situation. Also, I work with teenagers. Over the last few years, I've dealt with a bunch who were born to single mothers who used a sperm donor. With one exception, the results ain't pretty. | Now, this post I sort of agree with. The acquaintance that I know had a son, so as he grows older, I am sure there will be difficulties, so this post I completely empathize with. It makes sense. But on the other hand, I am extremely happy for her as this was something that she wanted badly.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:05 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
| Quote: | | Shabbat Is Coming, there can spring up a new kind of Shadchan, using the English vernacular word Matchmaker or generically, a Hannah, who would specialize in such marriages. | I dont think so, but you never know.
| Quote: | | However. I get it that your friend may not be interested in relating to a man any other way than the fairy-tale way. | Did I ever say that? No, just not to have to settle for the man that you described.
| Quote: | | That might be because a non-frum mindset is indeed a less structured and therefore less supported way of life. You are more on your own, mentally. The man is subject to fewer rules and regs, and he studies less. Therefore, he may be perceived as less trustworthy (fewer rules) and less interesting (watches sports and doesn't ponder Torah). | Dolly, what are you talking about here? Lets see how many things dont really make sense here: I wrote a few times that this person is a frum woman, with a lot of halachic knowledge, a lot. Who said she would marry someone who studied less? And because he does he is less trust worthy? Where do you come up with this stuff? Why does that make any sense in your mind? Less studying equals less trustworthiness?
| Quote: | | I sympathize. A difficult position for her. A bit of BT might help. | No, just a modern FRUM man like herself.
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amother
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:11 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Now, this post I sort of agree with. The acquaintance that I know had a son, so as he grows older, I am sure there will be difficulties, so this post I completely empathize with. It makes sense. But on the other hand, I am extremely happy for her as this was something that she wanted badly. |
Oh, I don't think the two have to conflict. You can be happy for someone even if you're not happy with their choices. Kind of like when someone makes an unwise choice of marriage partner. You're happy for them being happy, but you're worried that they're making a mistake and wonder about how it's going to play out.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:13 pm
| amother wrote: | | Oh, I don't think the two have to conflict. You can be happy for someone even if you're not happy with their choices. Kind of like when someone makes an unwise choice of marriage partner. You're happy for them being happy, but you're worried that they're making a mistake and wonder about how it's going to play out. | I dont know if I think she has made a mistake, but I do think that she has a lot of hard years ahead, thats all.
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Bruria
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:15 pm
I think it's great for her! Why should a woman stay childless just because she hasn't found someone that she wanted to get married to?
As for halacha, mamzerut is not an issue because mamzerut is the result of forbidden relations. In this case, there was nothing of the sort! I have no idea why people keep confusing mamzerut with the christian idea of bastard. Mamzer is not a child out of wedlock.
And also, for those who think it would be better for her to marry someone just because they want a child, I believe that in most cases that would bring all sorts of problems. That would be really shutting the door for her to find a real husband, one she loved and that would love her back!
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vintagebknyc
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:21 pm
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I'm not understanding why this increases the chances of incest.
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Brownies
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:21 pm
| Bruria wrote: | I think it's great for her! Why should a woman stay childless just because she hasn't found someone that she wanted to get married to?
As for halacha, mamzerut is not an issue because mamzerut is the result of forbidden relations. In this case, there was nothing of the sort! I have no idea why people keep confusing mamzerut with the christian idea of bastard. Mamzer is not a child out of wedlock.
And also, for those who think it would be better for her to marry someone just because they want a child, I believe that in most cases that would bring all sorts of problems. That would be really shutting the door for her to find a real husband, one she loved and that would love her back! |
The mamzerut issue is not in reference to the child born of the sperm donor but rather to the possibility that the child may in future unknowingly have children with his or her half-sibling, born from the same sperm donor to another woman. These children would then be mamzerim. This is presumably why sequoia's friend's rav advised her to use sperm from a non-Jewish donor.
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Bruria
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:25 pm
| Brownies wrote: | | The mamzerut issue is not in reference to the child born of the sperm donor but rather to the possibility that the child may in future unknowingly have children with his or her half-sibling, born from the same sperm donor to another woman. These children would then be mamzerim. This is presumably why sequoia's friend's rav advised her to use sperm from a non-Jewish donor. | There you go. Non jewish sperm donor, no mamzerut issue. 
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amother
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:28 pm
what is the point of this thread?
you asked people "wdyt", but then when they state an opinion disagreeing with you you note your disapproval of their opinion. sometimes you "partially" agree, to validate your own disagreement, and you note your approval of anyone who agrees with you.
is this thread here to make you feel good about yourself?
in any case, without any histrionics, I also find it hard to approve of this womans actions. all through jewish history people with very little in common other than the desire to raise beautiful jewish families have made their partnership work towards this goal. our generation is the first, possibly second, where we see this breaking down, because of our frailties.
the hope, and I have heard this expressed from much (older and) wiser people than me, is that once people have gotten older and have lost much of their foolish pride and fantasies about life, they can settle down in a realistic and practical marriage, as woman have ALWAYS done throughout our history. the idea that having a child without a father is better than this is difficult for me to swallow.
the only argument I hear is "times have changed, people are different, we have to deal with the realities of our dor". of course, this argument always starts off without changing halacha but just the hashkafa of a community. strangely, the communities that follow this logic never seem to end up violating halacha, they just end up with a different hashkafic outlook.
for instance, and I dont mean this sarcastically, conservative judaism comes in many flavors. they all think they are the only ones truly following halacha, which has a right to be altered because "times have changed". certainly modern orthodoxy is no exception. in many communities mixed swimming is perfectly acceptable. ask a mainstream orthodox (whatever that is) jew if thats ok, and the answer will invariably be no. so how is it justified? ah. "we have a different hashkafa" well what was the basis of the change in your hashkafic outlook in the first place?
....................
oh. times have changed.
well. can this possibly lead to a bad thing, single mothers having children? you want my opinion: yes. and I think single girls should not be allowed to the mikvah, and I think you should try and keep your children away from non-jewish literature, wherein the concept of separation between genders in non-existent, and I think your should not have a tv, and I think you should strive to not have internet in the house, and I think it is not ok for a normal healthy teenage boy to have a girlfriend, and I would not want my son to settle down happily with a homosexual partner, and all the other things that are espoused on the heilig pages of imamother.
even though times have changed.
because im one of those hopelessly old-fashioned people who think the secret of jewish survival, our immortal existence against the flow of time, is our finely honed hashkafic existence, which has ALWAYS defied the times, and is indeed timeless, and the true beautiful secret of the jews: we have the secret knowledge of how a society should look act and behave, and it is our challenge to not be influenced by those around us.
just my opinion
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Bruria
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:34 pm
| amother wrote: | what is the point of this thread?
you asked people "wdyt", but then when they state an opinion disagreeing with you you note your disapproval of their opinion. sometimes you "partially" agree, to validate your own disagreement, and you note your approval of anyone who agrees with you.
is this thread here to make you feel good about yourself?
in any case, without any histrionics, I also find it hard to approve of this womans actions. all through jewish history people with very little in common other than the desire to raise beautiful jewish families have made their partnership work towards this goal. our generation is the first, possibly second, where we see this breaking down, because of our frailties.
the hope, and I have heard this expressed from much (older and) wiser people than me, is that once people have gotten older and have lost much of their foolish pride and fantasies about life, they can settle down in a realistic and practical marriage, as woman have ALWAYS done throughout our history. the idea that having a child without a father is better than this is difficult for me to swallow.
the only argument I hear is "times have changed, people are different, we have to deal with the realities of our dor". of course, this argument always starts off without changing halacha but just the hashkafa of a community. strangely, the communities that follow this logic never seem to end up violating halacha, they just end up with a different hashkafic outlook.
for instance, and I dont mean this sarcastically, conservative judaism comes in many flavors. they all think they are the only ones truly following halacha, which has a right to be altered because "times have changed". certainly modern orthodoxy is no exception. in many communities mixed swimming is perfectly acceptable. ask a mainstream orthodox (whatever that is) jew if thats ok, and the answer will invariably be no. so how is it justified? ah. "we have a different hashkafa" well what was the basis of the change in your hashkafic outlook in the first place?
....................
oh. times have changed.
well. can this possibly lead to a bad thing, single mothers having children? you want my opinion: yes. and I think single girls should not be allowed to the mikvah, and I think you should try and keep your children away from non-jewish literature, wherein the concept of separation between genders in non-existent, and I think your should not have a tv, and I think you should strive to not have internet in the house, and I think it is not ok for a normal healthy teenage boy to have a girlfriend, and I would not want my son to settle down happily with a homosexual partner, and all the other things that are espoused on the heilig pages of imamother.
even though times have changed.
because im one of those hopelessly old-fashioned people who think the secret of jewish survival, our immortal existence against the flow of time, is our finely honed hashkafic existence, which has ALWAYS defied the times, and is indeed timeless, and the true beautiful secret of the jews: we have the secret knowledge of how a society should look act and behave, and it is our challenge to not be influenced by those around us.
just my opinion | I believe you missed the OP's point. She talked about a woman who tried and tried but did not find someone she felt would be a good husband for her. It's not like she woke up and decided she wanted to be a single mom. I believe most women would prefer a husband and a father for their children. But life is not the way we want sometimes. And women do have their biological clocks, after a certain age there is no possibility to get pregnant. So she took advantage of modern science and is bringing one more child to Am Israel. A Jewish neshama. Think about it.
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Dolly Welsh
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:43 pm
Vintage bkny, when enough women in a small-ish geographical area use sperm donor, there can be a lot of children running around who are one donor's children. Sperm donors don't donate one time. Unless the facilities make rules about how many times; I don't know anything about this field. But the donors get paid. They do it for the money.
Then, there is indeed a chance that half-siblings, from children of one one donor and of different mothers, can date. They have the same father but they don't know it. Neither does anybody else. That answers your question. It may be rare, but google would reveal if it has actually happened. I think this has been a concern that has been raised elsewhere, with good reason.
Shabbat, sorry, I got confused about your friend. Ah, she's frum. I wonder what she wouldn't like about my imaginary delighted older father? He's a little awkward and sincere, and thick about the middle, but so what?
After a certain age, nobody should throw stones.
Even a thin, well-exercised chic woman of a Certain Age can't change the facts about her choices: she can be alone, she can be a cougar, she can have a kid by herself, or she can marry my imaginary man. Who really isn't any uglier than she is. There is no arguing with age. She is kidding herself.
Ingrid Bergman conceded with her silvery laugh that at fifty she was just Ingrid Bergman at fifty. I watch the Late Show a lot, she averred. Purred. Where else can I forever be twenty years old! Then that marvelous smile.
It's not the same. Settle, Cleopatra. You aren't getting anyone stupider or less interesting than yourself.
People with miles on them are interesting. (I was just kidding about his drinking. He isn't a problem drinker. He's just nervous. He can handle what he drinks.)
That's what I would say to your fit, toned friend. In her control-top pantyhose.
But I don't know her, so I shouldn't talk.
I opine that it is better to see if a breathing man can be found, glasses, thick waistline, and all.
I think a woman doesn't date a man who looks like her father - receding hair, all that. Why? Because it means she now looks like her mother! Well, guess what. That's reality and it's not so bad.
The concerned post above seems to speak from more knowledge of such children than any of us have, about how this doesn't fly terribly well.
I opine that people need fathers. I liked mine.
Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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November
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:47 pm
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I agree with amother above who questioned why Shabbat is Coming would ask for opinions about a subject and then argue with opinions that don't line up with her own. What is the point?
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Dolly Welsh
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:54 pm
To talk it out. That's what Imamother is for. A lot has been learned on this thread.
And yes it's a problem.
Bring on the Hannahs.
You can't have one shadchan for old and young. Old and young are two different nations entirely. It's like saying I am a surgeon and I also sing opera. No. Two different tasks. Can't be done by the same person.
We need specialized shadchanim for this age group.
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amother
Wheat
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:57 pm
I have a friend who is LWMO. Her boyfriends that she slept with never proposed marriage, so she chose sperm donation before she would be too old to have kids.
I am not getting involved. It's her life and her kid.
I will say that I intend to raise my children Orthodox and not LWMO.
Last edited by amother on Sun, Jan 17 2016, 11:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sequoia
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:57 pm
Sheesh amother, that's a lot of stuff you've lumped together. Mixed swimming, secular literature, modern orthodoxy...
For the record, my friend is not MO, has a technical degree, dresses very tznius, doesn't read secular fiction and identifies as yeshivish.
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amother
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 7:59 pm
I was one of these older, single woman who chas v'shalom had a baby outside of marriage. It was not how I planned my life or how I would idealise a family unit, but it was the life that Hashem planned for me.
It was not easy and I will say that the hardest part outside of the day-to-day was judgement from others who could not possibly see how a frum woman could live a contradiction in this way. From my perspective, I see the contradiction of "perfect" frum families dishing out lashings of Lashon Hora about other people's family situations.
It worked out well for me since my child was the reason I met my DH. Would I have preferred to have met my DH first and then had a child? Absolutely. But for me, that is not my story.
What do I think about older women who choose to have babies on their own? I think that they are brave and deserve to be free of our judgement and ridicule.
My 2c. 
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amother
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:01 pm
So now we're yet again bashing conservative Jews, and throwing the MO in with them.
Once again, MO thrown under the bus. Sometimes I wonder why I even come to this site, I do. The only thing that makes up for being bashed as not being frum enough again, and again, and again, is coming to read and roll my eyes at all the crazy mishagas the "frummer" among us go put up with.
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amother
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Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:02 pm
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I don't think it is fair to the child to be brought up under such circumstances (in Frum society).Imagine when asked who his father is... I only have one child.I am tremendous pain over not having more but I have a medical condition that would make it risky for the child were I to have another one.Therefore I don't.While I realize I'm still in a much better situation then someone single with no child I still ask them to consider .Will the child be happy being born in frum society under such circumstances?
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