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Older single women having babies on their own, WDYT?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:42 pm
I have an acquaintance who is in her early 40s and has not been lucky enough to find her life partner yet. She decided a while back though that she wanted to be a mother so she did just that.
Now, this woman is extremely knowledgeable about halacha and she is a religious woman.

What do you think of this? Ill give my opinion a bit later after there are some replies. When I say what do you think about this, I dont mean halachically. This woman knows halacha and she obviously found out that everything was ok with what she did. I mean the family aspect, the emotional aspect, those things. What do you think in those terms?
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:47 pm
Bad idea. There are older singles who instead make a marriage out of it, just for the sake of having kids, and they function well and the kids benefit from a normal family structure. I know several such couples.

On another note, back back when I was single someone ran an article about this, and unfortunately for me she used my name as a pseudonym.

So when people googled me the first result was "Ectomorph is an older Orthodox single who is considering using sperm donation to have a child".


Last edited by ectomorph on Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:50 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Bad idea. There are older singles who instead make a marriage out of it, just for the sake of having kids, and they function well and the kids benefit from a normally family structure. I know several such couples.

On another note, back back when I was single someone ran an article about this, and unfortunately for me she used my name as a pseudonym.

So when people googled me the first result was "Ectomorph is an older Orthodox single who is considering using sperm donation to have a child".
What do you mean make a marriage out of it? Out of what? I think the lady who I am talking about probably, not sure, but probably just used a sperm donor. How is she to make a marriage out of it?
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:53 pm
I have two family members who did this (one from my side one from dhs). I felt very happy for them. Neither are frum but are Jewishly identified. One of them has gotten a lot of disapproval from many members of her also not frum but jewishly identified family members. I guess I was surprised by this. I thought they'd be happy for her. I don't think of it from a halachic perspective because that is for each person to decide on their own. But from a parenting perspective I feel that it is totally fine. Many grow up (as did I) in single parent households for a multitude of different reasons.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:54 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
What do you mean make a marriage out of it? Out of what? I think the lady who I am talking about probably, not sure, but probably just used a sperm donor. How is she to make a marriage out of it?

They made a marriage out of the desire to have children. Both man and woman (in all of the 3 couples I know who did this.)

One woman who I spoke to told me she is very happy with what she did. She felt it was too late for her to have the fairytale romance she had dreamed of, but at least she could have a family. She was selfless enough to give her children a father. Perhaps he wasn't perfect but he was a father and someone to grow old with.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:56 pm
ectomorph wrote:
They made a marriage out of the desire to have children. Both man and woman (in all of the 3 couples I know who did this.)

One woman who I spoke to told me she is very happy with what she did. She felt it was too late for her to have the fairytale romance she had dreamed of, but at least she could have a family. She was selfless enough to give her children a father. Perhaps he wasn't perfect but he was a father and someone to grow old with.
Ah, you mean she found a man who also felt like they had missed the boat in terms of finding a soul mate but both wanted to be parents. Well, thats great for them, but thats not my example here. Here it is one single woman getting pregnant (however she did) and bringing in a child, on her own.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 5:59 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Ah, you mean she found a man who also felt like they had missed the boat in terms of finding a soul mate but both wanted to be parents. Well, thats great for them, but thats not my example here. Here it is one single woman getting pregnant (however she did) and bringing in a child, on her own.

And I'm saying that that is morally repugnant. If someone wants to have children, they need to get married.

One does not have children without a father. It opens up the possibility of all kinds of incest.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:01 pm
ectomorph wrote:
And I'm saying that that is morally repugnant. If someone wants to have children, they need to get married.

One does not have children without a father. It opens up the possibility of all kinds of incest.
But who are we to judge? You say morally repugnant, who are we to say that just because someone wants a child they have to be married? Society keep on changing on what is the norm or what is "right". What could possibly be wrong with someone wanting to be a mother?
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:02 pm
Not my kind of idea. I agree with ectomorph: if you can't find your life partner, at least settle down with the father of your child. Let the kid have a father, a decent family.

The moral decline in the "outside" world is partly attributed to the rise in single moms (and I don't mean divorced ones...), the lack of a structured family, kids without a paternal lineage and the pride that comes from knowing who you are and whom you come from... It's a full picture.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:08 pm
pause wrote:
Not my kind of idea. I agree with ectomorph: if you can't find your life partner, at least settle down with the father of your child. Let the kid have a father, a decent family.

The moral decline in the "outside" world is partly attributed to the rise in single moms (and I don't mean divorced ones...), the lack of a structured family, kids without a paternal lineage and the pride that comes from knowing who you are and whom you come from... It's a full picture.
First off, how do you know that it will be a decent family life? Two people thrown together with nothing in common except wanting a baby? To me it sounds terrible.
And second, why should any woman have to settle for a man that she knows is in the relationship not for her? How do you think that feels?
We as married women cant judge such women. They are missing out on something but the desire to have children, wow, its there from a young age and who are we to take that away from anyone?
And do you actually have any proof about the moral decline in the outside world is partly attributed by the rrise of single mom?
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:09 pm
I think everyone has a right to be a parent. many children grow up with just one parent and turn out fine.

obviously it is better for both the child and the parent when there is a father involved but unfortunately that is not in the cards for everyone.

I think she did a smart thing given her particular situation.

thats my opinion. I have no idea what the halacha is.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:17 pm
As much as I think that situation is far from ideal and I can see many, many problems that would arise from it, (and that's assuming no halachic issues - which is hard to imagine) I can also say I understand the motivation. If I were in that situation (older and still single) I can't say what I would do, but I would hate to have missed out on the chance to be a mother just because I hadn't met Mr. Right. I certainly can't pass judgement on such a person. In the non-frum world this is not uncommon at all. In the frum world it would be very hard to be viewed as having done something scandalous and more so to subject a child to it.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:19 pm
Sperm donation is something I haven't really come to a clear opinion on. Adoption wouldn't be controversial to me, though. There are so many children waiting for a home, and no matter what people think of single parent households in general, it's certainly an improvement over whatever life these children had previously.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:21 pm
amother wrote:
As much as I think that situation is far from ideal and I can see many, many problems that would arise from it, (and that's assuming no halachic issues - which is hard to imagine) I can also say I understand the motivation. If I were in that situation (older and still single) I can't say what I would do, but I would hate to have missed out on the chance to be a mother just because I hadn't met Mr. Right. I certainly can't pass judgement on such a person. In the non-frum world this is not uncommon at all. In the frum world it would be very hard to be viewed as having done something scandalous and more so to subject a child to it.
So you are saying that you believe this is something scandalous in the frum world? Or are you saying the opposite? Either way, the lady who I am talking about is a fully frum woman.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:22 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Sperm donation is something I haven't really come to a clear opinion on. Adoption wouldn't be controversial to me, though. There are so many children waiting for a home, and no matter what people think of single parent households in general, it's certainly an improvement over whatever life these children had previously.
Right, Im not talking about adoption. Im talking about a single frum woman carrying her own baby, with no husband.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:24 pm
A friend of mine did this. She is frum and quite content with her son, conceived via sperm donation. Her rav advised a non-Jewish sperm donor is better.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:24 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Right, Im not talking about adoption. Im talking about a single frum woman carrying her own baby, with no husband.


Look, I'm sure it raised eyebrows. I'm getting stuck on the sperm donation.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:26 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
So you are saying that you believe this is something scandalous in the frum world? Or are you saying the opposite? Either way, the lady who I am talking about is a fully frum woman.


I am saying that regardless of if what she did was okayed by a rov or not, the yentas will always gossip about her and the child may always be viewed as inferior. Wrong, but that's the way I see things go down too often in frum communities. And while I could handle people whispering about me, I'd hate to see my child subjected.
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Hatemywig




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:27 pm
I have a close friend who intends to have a child on her own if she has not found a suitable husband by the time she is 40. I can't say I blame her.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 01 2014, 6:29 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
First off, how do you know that it will be a decent family life? Two people thrown together with nothing in common except wanting a baby? To me it sounds terrible.
And second, why should any woman have to settle for a man that she knows is in the relationship not for her? How do you think that feels?
We as married women cant judge such women. They are missing out on something but the desire to have children, wow, its there from a young age and who are we to take that away from anyone?
And do you actually have any proof about the moral decline in the outside world is partly attributed by the rrise of single mom?

1) Some people just haven't found their perfect life partner. That doesn't mean that they can't find someone with whom they have enough in common to build a family. And two normal people who want to marry just because they want a family is actually a very strong commonality, something that will actually keep them together.

2) Apparently such a woman's need for children overrides her need for marriage. So why should this make her feel bad if it's a mutual agreement?

3) I don't judge. You asked me my opinion. I stated it.

4) What kind of proof are you looking for? I am stating what I have read in various places on various topics over the course of a number of years.
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