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Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
amother
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 Today at 9:05 am
There were so many different opinions on that thread. Some posters blamed the schools, the teachers, the administration and the parents. Others defended them all.
Many blamed the system, saying it's unsustainable.
This is what I see: When I look around, I see my daughters' teachers living in tiny homes with threadbare carpets. My sons' Rebbeim are also struggling, they are certainly NOT living it up!
The administrators as well, none of them are living it up.**
**Obviously noone knows what people spend on privately, but to the naked eye, they're not living it up.
I'm a teacher, my husband in not in Chinuch but works in a Moisad and is on a chinuch wage. We get a tuition break, but it's still tough and we make every effort to pay, to the point of backpaying even when my kid has left the moisad if we're behind.
My point is that we're all all struggling, yet we all want to do the right thing. Frum life is veeery expensive and we're pulled in so many directions. So many of us don't sleep at night worrying about how we're gonna pay it all.
My point is that we should be kind to ourselves and each other.
Yes, there may be some who skip their tuition and buy designer clothes and take fancy vacations, but for the rest of us, 99% of us, this is not true!
Would love to hear posters thoughts on this.
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amother
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Today at 9:08 am
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Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!!
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amother
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Today at 9:13 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!! |
You're right, but this is off-topic from my OP.
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amother
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Today at 9:15 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!! |
This is actually an issue for me because it’s actually a requirement of a father to teach his son a trade ie make sure he can earn parnassah. Unfortunately so many people don’t set their children up for that though and just leave them out to dry
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amother
Lightblue
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Today at 9:17 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!! | Secular education does not guarantee a sustainable living. Where in heavens name do you get that from?
The entire US of A and the old USSR and the entire Europe, and a whole slew of continents that offer free Secular education should be able to sustain themselves.
This is a false perspective.
As yidden we know that there will always be poor people in the world because Hashem puts them there specifically to let the ones that have do chested with them.
The poor people sustain the world by being recipients of the kindness.
You can't do acts of kindness with people that are not in need.
Hashem is the source of parnossa. Attributing it to any other thing is really very silly and it does aggravate people to no extent because they see themselves as the cause for their failure.
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amother
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Today at 9:18 am
| amother OP wrote: | | You're right, but this is off-topic from my OP. |
It feeds right into it. As you outlined, our current lifestyle is unaffordable by most, but we intentionally tie our kids hands to earn high living wages.
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amother
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Today at 9:24 am
| amother Lightblue wrote: | Secular education does not guarantee a sustainable living. Where in heavens name do you get that from?
The entire US of A and the old USSR and the entire Europe, and a whole slew of continents that offer free Secular education should be able to sustain themselves.
This is a false perspective.
As yidden we know that there will always be poor people in the world because Hashem puts them there specifically to let the ones that have do chested with them.
The poor people sustain the world by being recipients of the kindness.
You can't do acts of kindness with people that are not in need.
Hashem is the source of parnossa. Attributing it to any other thing is really very silly and it does aggravate people to no extent because they see themselves as the cause for their failure. |
It doesn't guarantee it but it offers a derech hatevah opportunity for many folks to earn decent wages.
Hashem is absolutely the source of parnossoh but He also set it up to work with derech hatevah. One cant sit back and just say Hashem will provide without opening a bucket for parnossoh to fall into.
And it has to make sense. We don't work with relying on miracles, or depending on spiritual approaches. We have to follow the nature of the world that Hashem created. If you ignore finances for the newlywed couples, and set them up to only figure it out 5 years down the road, that's will ensure that many will struggle. For those men whom Hashem didn't bless with entreneurship skills or self/learning skills, they are going to have significant challenges to rise above.
It isn't rocket science, nor does it go against emunah, bitachon and our Torah.
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amother
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Today at 9:41 am
| amother Lightblue wrote: | Secular education does not guarantee a sustainable living. Where in heavens name do you get that from?
The entire US of A and the old USSR and the entire Europe, and a whole slew of continents that offer free Secular education should be able to sustain themselves.
This is a false perspective.
As yidden we know that there will always be poor people in the world because Hashem puts them there specifically to let the ones that have do chested with them.
The poor people sustain the world by being recipients of the kindness.
You can't do acts of kindness with people that are not in need.
Hashem is the source of parnossa. Attributing it to any other thing is really very silly and it does aggravate people to no extent because they see themselves as the cause for their failure. |
While nothing "guarantees" an income NOT getting training in a career that offers a good stable income is almost certainly going to guarantee financial hardship throughout one's life.
I think what people are pointing out is the complete lack of any kind of acknowledgement that it costs money to raise a family.
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amother
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Today at 9:48 am
| amother Lightblue wrote: | Secular education does not guarantee a sustainable living. Where in heavens name do you get that from?
The entire US of A and the old USSR and the entire Europe, and a whole slew of continents that offer free Secular education should be able to sustain themselves.
This is a false perspective.
As yidden we know that there will always be poor people in the world because Hashem puts them there specifically to let the ones that have do chested with them.
The poor people sustain the world by being recipients of the kindness.
You can't do acts of kindness with people that are not in need.
Hashem is the source of parnossa. Attributing it to any other thing is really very silly and it does aggravate people to no extent because they see themselves as the cause for their failure. |
Nothing guarantees anything, but we have a duty of hishtadlus. Obviously it’s all from Hashem, but we are literally obligated to teach our children a way to earn money. And if we don’t it is considered teaching them to steal
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amother
Seagreen
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Today at 9:55 am
In my world, I see teachers and Rebbeim living threadbare lives also.
Administrators are living comfortably.
There are constant push and campaigns to collect for the Rebbeim and teachers (bar mitzvah funds, chasuna funds, chasdei lev, regular tips).
The problem that is being ignored is the 60-70% of the class/community that is struggling. Making 150k with no programs, no benefits.
But it's assumed "they're rich" and they're being pressured and harassed to donate to the Rebbi fund constantly when they can't afford basics.
We're in that category. My husband works ft and makes 100k (including a 3 hour round trip commute so he's out of the house 11 1/2 hours a day).
I make 30k working 9-3 while my kids are in school.
We have to beg for tuition breaks. After all, we're rich baalebatim /s we should pay full 10k per kid.
We get called constantly. "The Rebbi is making a chasuna, can you give $1800 to make it bakovodik" (at the more expensive hall with the upgrades).
We're pressured to donate to the Chasdei lev programs so the Rebbeim's family have meat every day of yom Tov while we don't have any red meat. So the Rebbeim's family goes to Dorney Park on Chol Hamoed while we play soccer in the park, etc.
Im not jealous. Im frustrated.
We can't afford our life, stop pressuring us to pay for upgrades in the Rebbis life.
Stop making us out to some rich people who refuse to pay tuition. We can't afford it - we don't have food stamps or Medicaid. Sometimes we are making the choice between bread, milk, and bananas for the family vs paying tuition on time. When the school harasses me that I'm a week late, it's not because of vacations and designer clothes. It's because I prioritized $100 to cover a doctor's visit and antibiotics for my 6 month old with 103 fever- but I need to pay because I have a high deductible.
The top 20% creates a program for the bottom 20% and then can't understand why the middle 60% isn't paying up
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amother
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Today at 10:00 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!! |
I'm MO, and I've got news for you. Our communities full of well educated, degreed professionals are also being absolutely crushed by tuition.
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amother
Stonewash
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Today at 10:11 am
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Where Iive the teachers and rebbeim are barely making it while the administrators all live in fancy houses and drive fancy cars
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amother
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Today at 10:53 am
| amother Seagreen wrote: | In my world, I see teachers and Rebbeim living threadbare lives also.
Administrators are living comfortably.
There are constant push and campaigns to collect for the Rebbeim and teachers (bar mitzvah funds, chasuna funds, chasdei lev, regular tips).
The problem that is being ignored is the 60-70% of the class/community that is struggling. Making 150k with no programs, no benefits.
But it's assumed "they're rich" and they're being pressured and harassed to donate to the Rebbi fund constantly when they can't afford basics.
We're in that category. My husband works ft and makes 100k (including a 3 hour round trip commute so he's out of the house 11 1/2 hours a day).
I make 30k working 9-3 while my kids are in school.
We have to beg for tuition breaks. After all, we're rich baalebatim /s we should pay full 10k per kid.
We get called constantly. "The Rebbi is making a chasuna, can you give $1800 to make it bakovodik" (at the more expensive hall with the upgrades).
We're pressured to donate to the Chasdei lev programs so the Rebbeim's family have meat every day of yom Tov while we don't have any red meat. So the Rebbeim's family goes to Dorney Park on Chol Hamoed while we play soccer in the park, etc.
Im not jealous. Im frustrated.
We can't afford our life, stop pressuring us to pay for upgrades in the Rebbis life.
Stop making us out to some rich people who refuse to pay tuition. We can't afford it - we don't have food stamps or Medicaid. Sometimes we are making the choice between bread, milk, and bananas for the family vs paying tuition on time. When the school harasses me that I'm a week late, it's not because of vacations and designer clothes. It's because I prioritized $100 to cover a doctor's visit and antibiotics for my 6 month old with 103 fever- but I need to pay because I have a high deductible.
The top 20% creates a program for the bottom 20% and then can't understand why the middle 60% isn't paying up |
Where I live klei kodesh and kollel families get financial help, but so does any other family who asks, regardless of their job.
Tomchei Shabbos, Kimcha d'pischa, motnetary grants before each yom tov, cost price food, subsidised outings on chol hamoed etc, anyone who needs gets. They don't ask to see your pay-slips, credit card bills etc. Nobody likes taking, we are a nation of givers, so if you ask, you're believed.
I imagine if a family who go to Pesach programmes, or live the live high life publicly asks, it may be questioned, but why would they.
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amother
Oatmeal
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Today at 10:53 am
Communities where there is a higher level of secular education are not doing better than Lakewood on average financially.
The average secular career path to comfortable upper middle class with a family size of 2.5 (engineer, PA, CPA, etc) is basically poverty level for a family with 8-10 children.
So many couples making over 250k which is in the upper percentiles of secular society are posting on Imamother that they are drowning.
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amother
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Today at 10:55 am
| amother Stonewash wrote: | | Where Iive the teachers and rebbeim are barely making it while the administrators all live in fancy houses and drive fancy cars |
My husband is in administration, works in a moisad and receives a chinuch wage. Where do you live, seems we're living in the wrong city!!
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amother
Lotus
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Today at 11:01 am
| amother Seagreen wrote: | In my world, I see teachers and Rebbeim living threadbare lives also.
Administrators are living comfortably.
There are constant push and campaigns to collect for the Rebbeim and teachers (bar mitzvah funds, chasuna funds, chasdei lev, regular tips).
The problem that is being ignored is the 60-70% of the class/community that is struggling. Making 150k with no programs, no benefits.
But it's assumed "they're rich" and they're being pressured and harassed to donate to the Rebbi fund constantly when they can't afford basics.
We're in that category. My husband works ft and makes 100k (including a 3 hour round trip commute so he's out of the house 11 1/2 hours a day).
I make 30k working 9-3 while my kids are in school.
We have to beg for tuition breaks. After all, we're rich baalebatim /s we should pay full 10k per kid.
We get called constantly. "The Rebbi is making a chasuna, can you give $1800 to make it bakovodik" (at the more expensive hall with the upgrades).
We're pressured to donate to the Chasdei lev programs so the Rebbeim's family have meat every day of yom Tov while we don't have any red meat. So the Rebbeim's family goes to Dorney Park on Chol Hamoed while we play soccer in the park, etc.
Im not jealous. Im frustrated.
We can't afford our life, stop pressuring us to pay for upgrades in the Rebbis life.
Stop making us out to some rich people who refuse to pay tuition. We can't afford it - we don't have food stamps or Medicaid. Sometimes we are making the choice between bread, milk, and bananas for the family vs paying tuition on time. When the school harasses me that I'm a week late, it's not because of vacations and designer clothes. It's because I prioritized $100 to cover a doctor's visit and antibiotics for my 6 month old with 103 fever- but I need to pay because I have a high deductible.
The top 20% creates a program for the bottom 20% and then can't understand why the middle 60% isn't paying up |
SO well-said! Especially the bolded.
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amother
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Today at 11:04 am
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | Frum life is expensive and we live in a society that diminishes secular education- a path to earning a sustainable living. Just throwing that out there. Producing children who are capable of bringing home a living wage doesn't diminish a torah life- it can actually enhance it!! |
It isn't off topic at all. We are creating a society that forces many into poverty bc they don't have means to earn a living- or pat tuition!!
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amother
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Today at 11:06 am
| amother Bergamot wrote: | | I'm MO, and I've got news for you. Our communities full of well educated, degreed professionals are also being absolutely crushed by tuition. |
What is your definition of crushed? Children unable to attend school because teachers aren't getting paid. I don't think that is happening in any MO community. That is what this poster is referring to.
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amother
IndianRed
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Today at 11:13 am
| amother Bergamot wrote: | | I'm MO, and I've got news for you. Our communities full of well educated, degreed professionals are also being absolutely crushed by tuition. |
MO school tuition is much higher than nonMO school tuition. I’d guess that’s because they hire college educated staff at schools and pay them accordingly, which increases the cost of schooling.
For reference, tuition in Lakewood for an elementary girls school is at most 11k annually (as far as I’m aware). Most schools are lower than that. The average MO tuition is at least several thousand more than that.
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amother
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Today at 11:25 am
| amother IndianRed wrote: | MO school tuition is much higher than nonMO school tuition. I’d guess that’s because they hire college educated staff at schools and pay them accordingly, which increases the cost of schooling.
For reference, tuition in Lakewood for an elementary girls school is at most 11k annually (as far as I’m aware). Most schools are lower than that. The average MO tuition is at least several thousand more than that. |
I'm well aware the schools cost more. In fact, they cost so much more than even a parent body full of college educated professionals with great salaries still struggle to keep up. College education does not necessarily set you up to meet those expenses. And the expectation that everyone needs to go to college comes with its own set of problems.
| amother Tealblue wrote: | | What is your definition of crushed? Children unable to attend school because teachers aren't getting paid. I don't think that is happening in any MO community. That is what this poster is referring to. |
That's not the discussion in this thread. Op made the point that parents are struggling, and that stereotype of the family prioritizing everything but tuition is much less common than you'd think. Somebody replied that if only everyone had degrees, problem solved! I simply came in to say, as someone from a community where that's the done thing, problem most definitely NOT solved.
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