Dd12 navigating social situations

amother

OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 10:41 am

We live in a development style neighborhood. Dd12 and I were taking a walk on Friday night while the men were in shul and we passed a group of girls playing a card game on the steps outside Chany's house. Three of the girls are kids she plays with all the time, including that very afternoon, but Chany wasn't in her friend group although they definitely know each other from around. I know dd would have loved to join them, but she just gave a tiny little wave and kept walking.

I asked her why she didn't go over and join them, she said it's weird to just walk over, you're supposed to ask kids "are you available" or "can I play". So I asked her why she didn't go over and ask, she said she knows Chany isn't interested in her, she once called her fat. And if she asked, she'd probably say no. I said, you think a kid would really say no, you can't join? So she said yes, just last week I saw [3 other kids I'm friendly with] playing, I asked if I could join and one of them [a kid dd has been insisting for years in mean to her] said "no, we're not available" and the other kids didn't defend her.

These things don't come naturally to me nor to dd, so I have a couple of questions:

1. Is it true that if you see a group of kids you know playing and want to join, you're supposed to go over and ask formally? When I try to imagine what confident, outgoing, socially savvy kids do, I imagine them just walking over and somehow seamlessly joining the group. Obviously not everyone's capable of pulling that off, but if someone wanted to learn, is that how it's done? Or are kids taught to "ask"?

2. Do girls this age really tell other girls "no, you can't play with us?" If they were five or six maybe I could still see it happening, but at ten, eleven, twelve, I'd assume most kids have outgrown this behavior and even if they don't love a kid they know how to be more polite and inclusive? Or am I hopelessly naive and it's still something that can totally happen? If a kid does say no outright, do they have "issues", or is it within the realm of normal? I really want to believe dd, but I don't know if this is her anxiety talking or this is real. I can believe it about that one kid she says is always mean to her because that kid just comes across as rough and issue-y, but am I being untruthful if I reassure dd that most kids won't say no, and they'll probably say sure and be happy she joined? Or is that totally not the reality.

3. OUTSIDE OF THERAPY, SOCIAL SKILLS GROUPS, MEDICATION, and such, how would you answer a dd who claims kids aren't interested in her, they don't really like her, they think she's fat, they only want to play with her because they like her games or her pool etc, and you're really not sure if these kids are bad apples or your dd is just being paranoid or what? Bonus points if you have a kid with social anxiety and get that if this is in their head and you just validate it, you are feeding the beast. But on the other hand if there's some truth to this, you don't want to ch"v invalidate their pain.

For context, dd is cute, well dressed, friendly, has friends and is fun to be around when she's not being paranoid. IOW, from my observations I don't see why she'd be a target for bullying. But I do see how being anxious can make you look awkward which can deter kids somewhat maybe subconsciously which will then reinforce her anxiety.

amother

Cream ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 10:48 am

This is not really normal. In normal situations if kids are playing outside they usually welcome other neighbors joining. They are being very snobby and stuck up. But I’m not surprised we had a huge thread once and this is what many imamothers are teaching their kids now. That the world is about them and they don’t need to consider anyone else’s feelings. This is not how frum people are supposed to act.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 10:55 am

amother Cream wrote:

So the expected thing would be for the friends and chany to call out to dd and say hi!! Come join!!

If they didn't, does it mean they weren't interested?

It's funny you're saying that, because further down the block there were tons of ladies walking together, and she watched them greet other ladies from that block with loud gut shabboses and not me, and she said she ma they don't like you, they didn't say gut shabbos to you, only to those other ladies.

What if they didn't notice her? They were engrossed in their game and it was dark out. By the time they saw us and processed we were already several feet past the house. Or what if because she felt so anxious and hurried past, they thought she was more interested in the walk with me than playing with them?

The reason I'm being dlkz them is because these kids come over to our house plenty and they seem to like dd and seem like sweet kids. I can't speak for chany cuz she doesn't come by much. And I know dd tends towards anxiety. So I'm not so quick to write these kids off, though it would for sure make dd feel like a million if they proactively invited her to join.

amother

↑ Cream ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 11:17 am

amother OP wrote:

Or sometimes one not nice girl influences the group. So they can be really nice to her but go along with chany’s attitude when she’s around or they can feel too scared to stand up to her. Because they don’t want to be called names or hurt by her.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 11:20 am

amother Cream wrote:

Obviously this is a possibility. If you suspected this, what would you tell your dd? To not play with her friends when Chany is around?

And do 12 year olds still do that regularly? Call girls names or otherwise hurt girls for playing with someone else?

amother

↑ Cream

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 11:23 am

amother OP wrote:

Obviously this is a possibility. If you suspected this, what would you tell your dd? To not play with her friends when Chany is around?

If I felt she was strong enough I’d say she should still go up and say hi and sit down. She should drop the formality because it gives the girls the opportunity to be mean. Or if I felt it was making her more anxious and not helping her in the long run I’d say to avoid them when she’s around. It really depends which one you think will help her with confidence in the long run.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 11:24 am

amother Cream wrote:

This makes sense, thank you! I didn't think of it this way.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 1:08 pm

Are we the only ones dealing with this kind of dynamic?

amother

Cinnamon ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 1:53 pm

amother OP wrote:

It's funny you're saying that, because further down the block there were tons of ladies walking together, and she watched them greet other ladies from that block with loud gut shabboses and not me, and she said she ma they don't like you, they didn't say gut shabbos to you, only to those other ladies.

If you were alone and decided that you wanted to join those ladies in walking and talking, what would you have done?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 2:02 pm

amother Cinnamon wrote:

If you were alone and decided that you wanted to join those ladies in walking and talking, what would you have done?

Walked over, found someone I had more shaychus to and who wasn't already deep in a conversation with someone else, said gut shabbos and started shmoozing. Why?

amother

↑ Cinnamon

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 2:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

Walked over, found someone I had more shaychus to and who wasn't already deep in a conversation with someone else, said gut shabbos and started shmoozing. Why?

Seems like a missed teachable moment. Always best to work by example

amother

↑ OP

Mon, Sep 23 2024, 2:17 pm

amother Cinnamon wrote:

Seems like a missed teachable moment. Always best to work by example

Very interesting feedback. Thank you. Food for thought.