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amother
OP
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 Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:26 am
| amother Milk wrote: | | Chabad is most into the rebbe. And connected. |
Most chassidusen aside from Satmar are connected to their rebbe. I think its a uniquely Satmar phenomenon to consider yourself a part of the chassidus and never have any kesher with the rebbe at all.
Not to say that there aren't people like that. There will always be chassidim who wouldn't dream of doing anything without the rebbe's bracha and hadracha.
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amother
Milk
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:26 am
| amother OP wrote: | | Satmar started out as a kehilla. Reb Yoel was the rav in Satmar. He only became a rebbe after the war. |
But he’s still holy. A rov is a special person. Not on the same level of holy.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:31 am
| amother Dill wrote: | I am an interior designer, and worked with some satmer families. One thing I find fascinating is that even after they get married they are so connected to their sisters and mother. They stick together go shopping together, get together on shabbos etc. Any decisions on tiles, counters etc needed to be discussed with her sisters. The experience I had was that they are very codependent. (To a certain extent I was envious! But it was a little extreme)
Do you find that you and your sisters are so codependent? Is that the norm? |
What you say has some merit, but I don't think I've personally experienced it to such an extreme. My parents both have lots of sisters, as do I. We might ask each others for opinions if we're unsure about something, but we're not gonna shlep them along or base my decisions on them.
My sisters and I do hang out together approximately once a week, and my moms siblings will get together at my grandparents Shabbos afternoon or Motzai Shabbos.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:33 am
| amother Milk wrote: | | But he’s still holy. A rov is a special person. Not on the same level of holy. |
Noone is doubting his holiness, or measuring it. I certainly don't have the metric for that.
And there are many lesser known rabbanim that are on a higher spiritual plane than the contemporary chassidish Rebbes who are only revered due to their zchus avos
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amother
Milk
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:39 am
| amother OP wrote: | Noone is doubting his holiness, or measuring it. I certainly don't have the metric for that.
And there are many lesser known rabbanim that are on a higher spiritual plane than the contemporary chassidish Rebbes who are only revered due to their zchus avos |
That’s my point. R’ Yoel was known as a real true tzaddik same with other rabbeim and gedolim.
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amother
Chocolate
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:51 am
| amother Milk wrote: | | That’s my point. R’ Yoel was known as a real true tzaddik same with other rabbeim and gedolim. |
No ones debating that. We’re talking about the Satmar culture vis a vis chassidus
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amother
Leaf
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:59 am
| amother Milk wrote: | | Chabad is most into the rebbe. And connected. |
Huh? There is no rebbe now. That is the problem with chabad these days.
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amother
Mayflower
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 11:59 am
| amother Dill wrote: | I am an interior designer, and worked with some satmer families. One thing I find fascinating is that even after they get married they are so connected to their sisters and mother. They stick together go shopping together, get together on shabbos etc. Any decisions on tiles, counters etc needed to be discussed with her sisters. The experience I had was that they are very codependent. (To a certain extent I was envious! But it was a little extreme)
Do you find that you and your sisters are so codependent? Is that the norm? |
I used to think its Hungarian specific but over the years as my experiences have broadened I realized my view was limited.
This is true for families of various backgrounds.
Non Jewish Italian families are very similar in this sense to name one.
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amother
Mayflower
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:01 pm
OP you said your husband does a malacha 30 minutes after shkia.
I was born and bred in KJ and have lived here for 40 years but I haven't seen this.
I know it exists with the more extreme satmar.
Is your family Bnei Yoel?
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:11 pm
| amother Mayflower wrote: | OP you said your husband does a malacha 30 minutes after shkia.
I was born and bred in KJ and have lived here for 40 years but I haven't seen this.
I know it exists with the more extreme satmar.
Is your family Bnei Yoel? |
What part of this entire 16 page thread screams Bnei Yoel to you?
We are the furthest thing from Bnei Yoel. I didn't see it growing up either but it's something my husband's family does, with a mesorah, so we respect it and carry it on.
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amother
Milk
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:11 pm
| amother Leaf wrote: | | Huh? There is no rebbe now. That is the problem with chabad these days. |
Go to the ohel. Write to the iggris.
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amother
Mayflower
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:13 pm
| amother OP wrote: | What part of this entire 16 page thread screams Bnei Yoel to you?
We are the furthest thing from Bnei Yoel. I didn't see it growing up either but it's something my husband's family does, with a mesorah, so we respect it and carry it on. |
Screams? I didn't say anything screams.
I asked because BY (or the like iykyk) are the only ones I know who do this.
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chestnut
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:15 pm
| amother Mayflower wrote: | OP you said your husband does a malacha 30 minutes after shkia.
I was born and bred in KJ and have lived here for 40 years but I haven't seen this.
I know it exists with the more extreme satmar.
Is your family Bnei Yoel? |
If I understood it correctly, they hold that shkiya is 30 mins after the candle lighting, so she lights 30 mins earlier at the zman, and he has 30 mins (vs regular 18) until shkiya to do melacha.
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amother
Mayflower
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 12:17 pm
| chestnut wrote: | | If I understood it correctly, they hold that shkiya is 30 mins after the candle lighting, so she lights 30 mins earlier at the zman, and he has 30 mins (vs regular 18) until shkiya to do melacha. |
I know what she's talking about.
This wasn't my question.
But thanks:)
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amother
Lotus
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 1:30 pm
Responding to the whole apple on Friday night that was mentioned:
The source for this is that it says in zemiros
תפוחין קדישין
I never heard anything about it being a segulah for parnassah
And regarding the doing melachah 30 minutes after the zman:
I didn't know there is anyone who holds this way in America. I was under the understanding that it was assured by all gedolim in America and they made a unified zman (early 1900s? Late 1800s?) And they davka did it by gathering all gedolim in America at the time regardless of affiliation, so that no kegilla would be able to make changes later. I didn't know Satmar had the halachic ability to override this and I have never heard of this later zman for melachah.
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amother
Brown
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 1:43 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Yes, BH Satmar is very big on chesed. Helping each others out is huge in Satmar |
What I found amazing is that you don't just 'help each other'. You help all Yidden, I was a stranger from a strange land, yet they helped me! I've never forgotten it.
It was around 7 years ago, I don't think I've met a Satmar Yid since, but it made a huge impression on me, and my family, who were grateful I was being cared for so far from home.
OP you should be proud to be part of such a dynasty!!
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amother
Leaf
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 1:51 pm
I was once in a terrible traffic jam on an erev rosh hashana. It was many years ago before Waze and cell phone days. When it was just about the 18 minutes we stopped on the side of the road not knowing what to do. It was upstate and we were in a deserted area. We found someone and asked for walking directions. We were going to leave our car and belongings. We thought we were very close but when we asked for directions we were told it would take an hour to walk and it would be very unsafe and dark. We were eventually able to find a taxi and arrived once it was yomtov. We felt terrible that this is how we entered rosh hashana. We were told that there is really another 12 minutes after the 18 minutes so we might not have been mechalel shabbos. Over the years I’ve learned about those extra 12 minutes. We are not supposed to use them and count on them but if someone does need it for an extenuating circumstance, it’s there.
Apparently there are people who count on those extra minutes on a regular basis.
That’s what we have rabbanim for. Ask your rav and follow what he says. Only a competent rav can pasken.
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amother
Lotus
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 2:00 pm
| amother Leaf wrote: | I was once in a terrible traffic jam on an erev rosh hashana. It was many years ago before Waze and cell phone days. When it was just about the 18 minutes we stopped on the side of the road not knowing what to do. It was upstate and we were in a deserted area. We found someone and asked for walking directions. We were going to leave our car and belongings. We thought we were very close but when we asked for directions we were told it would take an hour to walk and it would be very unsafe and dark. We were eventually able to find a taxi and arrived once it was yomtov. We felt terrible that this is how we entered rosh hashana. We were told that there is really another 12 minutes after the 18 minutes so we might not have been mechalel shabbos. Over the years I’ve learned about those extra 12 minutes. We are not supposed to use them and count on them but if someone does need it for an extenuating circumstance, it’s there.
Apparently there are people who count on those extra minutes on a regular basis.
That’s what we have rabbanim for. Ask your rav and follow what he says. Only a competent rav can pasken. |
I am the poster who wrote that I don't know why Satmar does melachah during those extra minutes. I am aware that this "twilight zone" exists, there were gedolimg (the Chasam Sofer, IIRC) used to davka do melacha during that time period publicly to show that it isn't yet halachically Shabbos.
However like you said it is only for emergency and not meant to be used for melachah on a regular basis.
The reason this is so stringent in America is that there is a halacha regarding these zmanim which states that although the exact time is debatable and there are different shittos, if a specific kehilla has accepted one zman upon themselves, no individual in that kebilla can say he keeps a different zman and do melachah later.
In America, there was a lot of confusion about the zman and there was no widespread accepted time. Therefore all the rabbanim in America across the board gathered and agreed that shkiah would be the time for the entire USA for the zman of shabbos. And as such the entire America became as one kehilla and no one is allowed to say anymore that they hold of a different shittah.
That's why I wrote that I'm not sure how satmar was allowed to halachically come along later and decide that they do melachah later.
I do know that while most people light candles 18 minutes before shkiah, Satmar lights 15 minutes before shkiah.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 2:55 pm
| amother Lotus wrote: | I am the poster who wrote that I don't know why Satmar does melachah during those extra minutes. I am aware that this "twilight zone" exists, there were gedolimg (the Chasam Sofer, IIRC) used to davka do melacha during that time period publicly to show that it isn't yet halachically Shabbos.
However like you said it is only for emergency and not meant to be used for melachah on a regular basis.
The reason this is so stringent in America is that there is a halacha regarding these zmanim which states that although the exact time is debatable and there are different shittos, if a specific kehilla has accepted one zman upon themselves, no individual in that kebilla can say he keeps a different zman and do melachah later.
In America, there was a lot of confusion about the zman and there was no widespread accepted time. Therefore all the rabbanim in America across the board gathered and agreed that shkiah would be the time for the entire USA for the zman of shabbos. And as such the entire America became as one kehilla and no one is allowed to say anymore that they hold of a different shittah.
That's why I wrote that I'm not sure how satmar was allowed to halachically come along later and decide that they do melachah later.
I do know that while most people light candles 18 minutes before shkiah, Satmar lights 15 minutes before shkiah. |
This is a very interesting conversation and I appreciate you bringing this up. Like I said upthread I didn't grow up with this and it's something that my husband does. The background information is really interesting especially because I never knew a source for it.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Jun 30 2024, 2:56 pm
| amother Brown wrote: | What I found amazing is that you don't just 'help each other'. You help all Yidden, I was a stranger from a strange land, yet they helped me! I've never forgotten it.
It was around 7 years ago, I don't think I've met a Satmar Yid since, but it made a huge impression on me, and my family, who were grateful I was being cared for so far from home.
OP you should be proud to be part of such a dynasty!! |
I meant each others as in all yidden. We are all family no matter what we look like.
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