Please explain Chardal hashkafa to me

amother

Turquoise

Today at 5:09 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

I feel like there's no space and schools for healthy unrebellious modern charedi

They are trying in RBS with schools like Magen Avot and Bnos Malka, Darchei Noam, and more, with varying degrees of success. It's importing an American mentality, so not easy.

samo ↓

Today at 5:49 am

I’m glad to see this thread I’ve actually always wondered myself. Some really interesting and beautiful descriptions here. I’m particularly interested in the differences in tzanua. Like they are so passionate and makpid on things but when it comes to what the women wear or how they cover their hair, it doesn’t even seem like Halacha is being followed. I’m not judging! Really just curious as to what is behind that.

↑ Reality

Today at 6:23 am

samo wrote:

Maybe phrase your question better! Saying I'm not judging doesn't exonerate you from saying chardali women don't follow halacha!

The fact that you can even write that shows me you have no clue what chardali means. Married chardali women cover their hair completely with a mitpachat. They dress in non-form fitting clothes that cover everything. Just because they don't follow the chareidi cultural halachic rulings regarding collarbone and sandals, for example, does not mean they don't dress tznius.

↑ essie14

Today at 6:25 am

samo wrote:

Today's episode of the 18Forty podcast touches on this.
It's an excellent episode.

shabbatiscoming ↓

Today at 6:56 am

samo wrote:

The fact that you wrote this leads me to wonder about 2 things:
1. You must not live in Israel
2. You have no idea what chardal truly is.
A chardal woman is completely tzanua. Completely.

Elfrida ↓

Today at 6:59 am

Dati leumi women sometimes take more leeway as the the exact requirements of covering the hair. Chardal women fully cover.

↑ samo ↓

Today at 7:11 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The fact that you wrote this leads me to wonder about 2 things:
1. You must not live in Israel
2. You have no idea what chardal truly is.
A chardal woman is completely tzanua. Completely.

It’s true! I have no idea and I don’t live in EY. But I have been to EY and even here I see people like this and when I see lots of hair being shown, legs uncovered, open collarbones and elbows- I really just wonder.

amother

Chambray

Today at 7:22 am

samo wrote:

That would be Dati leumi ladies, not chardal

↑ Elfrida ↓

Today at 7:27 am

samo wrote:

The halacha is a lot wider than the commonly accepted Beis Yaakov standards. Yes, there are some people who take the most lenient opinion they can find, and then push so that it's something loosely approximating that. That is more within tbe Dati Leumi community, which covers a broad spectrum.

There are others, generally defined as chardal, who study the halacha in depth, know exactly what they are talking about, and choose to follow a certain opinion. Shivim panim l'Torah, and more than one halachic view can be valid. What matters is that they dress a certain way based on solid halachic views, not just because they feel like it.

There's one shiur I go to where the woman teaching exposes more of her hair than I do, and doesn't wear tights in the summer. She also has a doctorate in Tanach/talmud, davens at least twice a day, and I would say her level of avodat Hashem far exceeds mine. If you ask about her dress, she is able to quote from the gemara to modern day poskim discussing the matter, and will explain exactly what opinion she relies on. She grew up in Beis Yaakov, by the way, but found other, equally valid, ways to be oved Hashem.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Today at 7:56 am

samo wrote:

Chardal exists IN israel, not out of israel, so whomever you are seeing, wherever you live is NOT chardal.
They are modern orthodox. And thats NOT what this thread is about.

↑ samo

Today at 8:26 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Chardal exists IN israel, not out of israel, so whomever you are seeing, wherever you live is NOT chardal.
They are modern orthodox. And thats NOT what this thread is about.

Got it. I’m really not informed, OP’s question peaked my curiosity and I wanted to better understand. Thank you for explaining.

amother

Ghostwhite ↓

Today at 8:38 am

Im "regular litvish JPF," grew up in tri state area ( no "OOT small community " exposure") and I remember having an argument in Seminary 12 years ago with my ( single) madricha from europe who made aliya that I'm not charedi, in my mind charedi equals chasidish in America.
Im not sure about all the other terms, but I also feel that among the people I know in Israel they tend to have a negative attitude toward charedi.

ETA - Is the heart a hate? I said " in my mind" and in a later post I said I'm learning new things.

↑ Elfrida

Today at 8:42 am

amother Ghostwhite wrote:

The terms are in no way equivalent.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Today at 8:44 am

amother Ghostwhite wrote:

Thats not true. Charedi is many more communities, not only chassidish. Black hat, kollel, type families would be charedi.
Rhink of all if the chatedim in israel. Way more than just chasidim.

amother

↑ Ghostwhite

Today at 8:45 am

Elfrida wrote:

The terms are in no way equivalent.

Im seeing/ learning that from reading such threads, I still don't think I'm chareidi though, I believe in secular education, and have technology. Its interesting all the different nuances, I learn new things every day Smile

amother

↑ Cherry

Today at 8:51 am

[quote="amother Ghostwhite"]Im "regular litvish JPF," grew up in tri state area ( no "OOT small community " exposure") and I remember having an argument in Seminary 12 years ago with my ( single) madricha from europe who made aliya that I'm not charedi, in my mind charedi equals chasidish in America.
Im not sure about all the other terms, but I also feel that among the people I know in Israel they tend to have a negative attitude toward charedi.

ETA - Is the heart a hate? I said " in my mind" and in a later post I said I'm learning new things.[/quot

Nope. Charedi vs Chardal boils down to cultural differences (dress, schooling, gadolim) and army service. There's no equivalence in the US to Chardal. Charedi exists in the US- think right wing litvish and chassidish communities. I am open minded yeshivish but in Israel I still identified with the charedi world and sent my kids to charedi schools (more open though) because for me the chardal world was just too culturally different from American yeshivish.

amother

Springgreen

Today at 8:57 am

Where does mizrachi fit into all of this?

What are some yeshivas that are considered chardal? Is Yeshivat Har Tzion considered Chardal?

Success10

Today at 9:01 am

amother Ghostwhite wrote:

You’re not mainstream chareidi. But there are communities of people like you who call themselves chareidi. Mostly Anglo. Rechovot is a good example.

amother

Opal

Today at 9:08 am

I am torani, I live in a place that has a significant presence of torani and chardal (Kiryat Moshe in Jerusalem)

Torani and chardal are similar in terms of halachic observance. They are also both similar in halachic observance to chareidi. However, torani/chardal don't have a lot of the same surrounding chumrahs/minhagim/community-acceptable standards that exist in the chareidi world - for example in terms of dress or the chareidi shidduch system or not going to the army etc. But in terms of actual halachic standards, it is very similar. Torani/chardal both emphasize torah learning and army, but jobs are also an option. In both torani and chardal, women are fully tznius - hair fully covered, sleeves past the elbows, necklines above the collarbone, legs completely covered. Schools are completely separate (not just separate classes, but separate schools). Many separate boys and girls in gan already. Gan age girls often wear skirts already. Schools have extra hours of torah learning, some have less secular studies but that varies.

Some differences between torani and chardal: 1) Chardal is very closed to the outside world, quite similar to chareidi. Torani is more open to the outside world. Examples, torani - I have a computer with internet at home but we have a filter, my daughter only has a kosher dumb phone, I have a smart phone with whatsapp); chardal often don't have that. OR another example is my kids read secular books and appropriate clean kids movies (no TV though); chardal usually do not allow that. Chardal is more sheltered than torani, but the level of halachic observance is similar. 2) What boys do after highschool. In the torani world, boys usually go to hesder (combined 5 years of yeshiva plus a shortened army service in the middle). Some boys may go to yeshiva first for several years and then do army only later. In the chardal world, boys generally go to yeshiva (think Merkaz HaRav or Har Hamor) for several years and then do the army when they are older/more settled/married. 3) Chardal schools often have minimal secular studies, especially for boys but also sometimes for girls. Some have basically no English language. Torani schools can go either way. Many in both are talmud torahs for elementary schools, and high schools are yeshivas. For girls, the chardal schools have their own semi-private system for elementary and high school, for torani there are torani public religious schools and then torani high schools (ulpanot).

Chareidi lite or modern chareidi is a different sphere, it is those who want the charedi community and school system and dress etc but are more open to technology and are somewhat less into certain chumrahs/minhagim than the general chareidi community.

Basically, dati leumi and chareidi are different spectrums here with no overlap. Torani and chardal are the right wing end of the dati leumi specturm, while chareidi lite and modern chareidi are the left wing end of the chareidi spectrum.

Happy to answer more specific questions if you have.

↑ shabbatiscoming

Today at 9:11 am

amother Springgreen wrote:

Where does mizrachi fit into all of this?

What are some yeshivas that are considered chardal? Is Yeshivat Har Tzion considered Chardal?

Do you mean yeshivat har Etzion? In alon shvut?
And mizrachi is not a thing in israel, unless you mean sfardi in some way.