New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:21 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I agree, and I also think that we should be kicking out people who are here on visas for years and don't become citizens. Same story.

I do think there's other factors here are like a mistrust of the government actually making the proper accommodations that they want. But I don't think that you're not wrong

I agree. There's a lot of mistrust and a lot of fake news.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 3:42 pm

Reality wrote:

The benefit of living in our wonderful land, freely and openly as Jews.

The benefit of all the social services offered: health care, free/low cost schooling, pension, garbage collection etc. Not to beat a dead horse, but also all the financial benefits listed upthread.

All with a free pass of not having to serve to defend our precious homeland.

There are many who don't serve in IDF and still get all social benefits. Arabs for example. Or people who make aliya over a certain age.
You want to link social benefits to army service?

amother

Aconite ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 4:40 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

When I say life and values I meant core values where the Torah living is the center of life. If boys would be able to go and work at 21 (which I have nothing against in principal) of course many would go it. Does it change our core values? My answer is no.

And there you have it. The truth that nobody says but is there all of the time.
So many learners are warming the benches so that they wont continue on in life. So if a job is what they are after, why not do what they need to do to get to that point? They arent actually learning for the sake of learning.

Another mom ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 4:57 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

I really really wish you would change your title from "frum familes" to "charedi families" at the very least.

It's super offensive to people like me whose frum husbands (who are not spry 19 year olds with no obligations beyond themselves, but balding dads pushing 40 with many professional obligations and families they left behind) spent half a year in the army. Actually my husband came home more committed to learning and davening.

Wow - I respect your husband and -- THANK YOU!
This thread has been going on for a while - just want to reiterate that serving in Tzahal, the Israeli army is Milchemet Mitzva!! No two ways about it! And I know everyone here is all for Mitzvos! If you can learn while serving, like many here - (like Saadia Deri hy"d who was studying for 2 Smicha tests at once), you are doing 2 Mitzvos! And if you can't learn as well, so העוסק במצווה פטור מהמצווה.
So it's a big Zchus and I wish all our dear soldiers health and daven that all should come home soon!!

amother

Nemesia

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 5:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

Becauser it’s impossible and a very very difficult to remain frum.

First the entire premise of serving the country for the medinah isn’t in our vocabularye, we look at the country as secular and draft into a secular army would be frightening.

In the DL community they’re prepped from young age to serve after hesder it’s completely different and I guess they all stick together.
Charedei don’t spend much time with secular people at all - two completely different worlds.

I can’t imagine the secular army wants any religious people there just speaking with them their religion is secularism!!

No. The answer is because the Steipler said no and none of the Torah leadership today feels up to changing something a Torah great from the previous generation said. Period.

amother

Blueberry ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 5:14 pm

imaima wrote:

Do you know why we say the bracha for learning Torah only once a day?
Because we keep learning Torah all day long, all of us, bot only while learning but also during our other pursuits.
Don’t you think a person in active service who faces all sorts of situations will understand more from Torah (as a blueprint for the way the world is run as opposed to the book) than someone who spends all day in the yeshiva and his neighborhood?

No...

amother

↑ Blueberry ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 5:19 pm

imaima wrote:

Torah at large flourishes in the yeshivot.
When you are talking about individual spirituality, people’s emunah flourishes more when it has been tested in real life.
The argument was that many become frummer than before.

Where I live is irrelevant.

Sez who? That thinking belongs to a certain type of ideology which is definitely not chareidi. And doesn't seem to hold true in practice either, from what I have seen.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 6:27 pm

amother Aconite wrote:

There are boys who have a hard time to sit full time and study. They don't have the sitzfleisch. Because of army draft they prefer to stay in the yeshiva. If there's was no threat of draft and they could get a ptur at 21 instead of 26 for sure more would go out to work. Maybe not full time but part time plus kovea itim.

amother

Chocolate ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 9:31 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I thought they prefer to stay in yeshiva because they believe their Torah learning saves the world.
I didn’t know it was to avoid the draft.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:04 am

amother Blueberry wrote:

...and also hit the glass ceiling really soon and be not-so-subtly encouraged to retire from the military.

Nu? Again, the army is not perfect. In fact its incredibly far from perfect. But I don't understand how people think it makes sense to be sitting here in the middle of a war, when we probably still have a lot of fighting before us, when there are miluimnikim and their families who are collapsing, and have the same discussion we could have had a year ago. The reality on the ground has changed, we have to change. And yes, both sides have to make changes, and I really do believe the army is willing to make those changes. And I hear a lot of willingness from individuals in the charedi community (including in this thread) to understand that things have to change. But as long as the leadership isn't on board its almost impossible to make any real change

↑ imaima ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:09 am

amother Blueberry wrote:

Sez who? That thinking belongs to a certain type of ideology which is definitely not chareidi. And doesn't seem to hold true in practice either, from what I have seen.

I don’t even know how to take it seriously when an even more anonymous poster questions my words… Do you think just you posted this, your experience of „what you have seen“ has more value than mine?

heidi ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:10 am

amother OP wrote:

Because it’s impossible and a very very difficult to remain frum.

First the entire premise of serving the country for the medinah isn’t in our vocabulary, we look at the country as secular and draft into a secular army would be frightening.

In the DL community they’re prepped from young age to serve after hesder it’s completely different and I guess they all stick together.
Charedei don’t spend much time with secular people at all - two completely different worlds.

I can’t imagine the secular army wants any religious people there just speaking with them their religion is secularism!!

Do Charedim celebrate Chanuka?
The Chashmonaim were kohanim- they took the malchut which was certainly a "secular" thing to do.
Yet somehow we were able to see the big picture.
We are in a milchemet mitzvah.
I have three FRUM sons serving in the army.
OP, you are hurtful and disgusting.
Stay home.

amother

Obsidian ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:23 am

amother Nasturtium wrote:

Stay strong in there yiddeshkeit - yes

Stay really hard core charedi - I have not met anyone yet, and I am very very involved in groups that are in derech chaim ( the charedi hesder) hedvata, shachar kachol, netzach yehuda. Both family and professionally, and neighbors.

The people who go to these maslulim come out more charedi lite then charedi, if at all. They may have the levush but they don't have the values.

I think that disregarding this is the reason we have not reached a solution, and we currently have many many charedi men who are NOT learning full time who are not in the army. The current reality that it is almost impossible to remain hard core, shtark, charedi in the army in the current set up

I do have hope - that after OCT. 7th the army will recognize the need for charedi soliders and will be more willing to create frameworks that work for them.
My dd is a girl and very young, but I hope that if mashiach doesnt come, by the time I have kids at gil giyus, there will be options for them to serve if it turns out that learning full time is not where they will best use there kochos.

If I may, your data is biased, because right now the situation is that only the ones who are "more lite than charedi" draft in the first place. And that is almost exclusive across the board.

If more charedim draft and it becomes harder to evade then you will have more hard-core strong charedim drafting and more hard-core strong charedim being released at the end of their time in the army. In Chabad we don't have people becoming "lite" at the end, sometimes it happens but mostly you come out the way you went in, or the army allows you to go the way you've been trying to go anyways. Really if you are strong then you will stay strong, if you are not then the army is just an excuse.

At the same time we definitely need many more charedi-only units headed by charedi commanders and which accommodate charedi values and lifestyle. You cannot draft more charedim than you have charedi units to put them in. The IDF actually does understand this but the broohaha is being made by the political echelon, not the IDF.

amother

↑ Obsidian

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:24 am

amother Chocolate wrote:

I thought they prefer to stay in yeshiva because they believe their Torah learning saves the world.
I didn’t know it was to avoid the draft.

Well it is a mixture of both, you really need to delve into the history of it to understand.
But today it is just a cholent and the horaat shaa needs to end and everyone needs to adapt.
The "we will die instead of draft" is a violation of bal tosif.

amother

Darkblue ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:49 am

LovesHashem wrote:

So much hate. What is wrong with staying on a visa instead of making aliya? It is 100% legal.

We renew our visas on time with no lapses. We pay income taxes (rate of 50%!), full arnona (over 350 meters, not cheap), Bituach Leumi, VAT etc like anyone else. We also spend all our money here, including all the assets from before we moved to Israel. How in the world does this harm or bother anyone else? The government GAINS a whole lot of money from us. In exchange, we get treated like citizens except in regards to DoD and we can't vote. It is more complicated to be on a visa but it is 100% legal and there is no reason for all the hate.

BTW- A few months after we moved here, I called Nefesh B'nefesh. They only wanted to give us a few thousand dollars. The benefits are negligible unless you are coming with a large family.

amother

↑ Turquoise

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 5:12 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The only issue is that the army isn't willing to accommodate chareidi needs. Not in the past and not now or in the future.
It's far too late for medinat israel to try to make a U-turn and correct past mistakes. Now we are on the 3rd or 4th generation of chareidim who have seen their father and grandfather and even great grand father exempted from the army.

So tell us, how exactly is the IDF unaccommodating to the chareidim?
You want to sound like you know, but I really don't think you do.

My sons have never had issues with kol isha.

My sons always had mehadrin and shmitah l'chumrah when needed. (I can tell you how treif my son's yeshiva kitchen was after bochrim got into the kitchen - army puts you in jail for such an offense, not any yeshiva).

They are protecting the country so hilchos Shabbos can be different. As you would never say a member of Hatzalah is mechalel Shabbos, this is the same situation. My son has shabbos meals and even had a pesach seder in the middle of the night. Ironically they once had a group of chassidish bochrim come to help on base with a minyan. Unfortunately, these bochrim didn't get up on Shabbos morning to help out with the minyan so they all had to daven on their own with no leining.

They were so accommodating, if they could be, to let husbands go home at appropriate times keeping hilchos taharas hamishpacha in mind.

Now I want to hear your examples of how unaccommodating the IDF is.