Frustrated and Disgusted by student..NEED ADVICE!!

↑ bestseven ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 1:11 am

gryp wrote:

If you have not "made an example" of him yet, you never will.
Do you want to break him?
As Rich Lavoie says, how much power do you need?

Chinuch is not about breaking people into submission. "Al pi darko" means this child is not a good shidduch for your teaching personality and does not belong in your class.

Have pity on him, he is practically just out of diapers. He needs help and direction, not disgust and disdain thrown at him. Do you seriously think you can teach him ANYTHING with those emotions being thrown about? Have you ever learned anything from someone who felt disdain or disgust for you?

Why don't you smile at him and tell him that you think he's a terrific kid. I am sure you can come up with a few reasons if you try.

Not only isn't it going to work to bully. Teachers are sales people. An adult will buy a good product even from an offensive salesperson if he knows he needs or wants the product. Kids will not. They must love the salesperson to even look at his product. A teacher must be loved in order to transmit anything and kids know exactly who loves them and who doesn't.

↑ bestseven

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 1:21 am

I am probably the last poster here right now. I read through all the posts. It is quite obvious who ever was in the chinuch field and who was not. All of you who have never taught are yelling and getting into the issue of "reporting the teacher to the principal for one reason or the other". (It's principal, not principle). Some teachers are begging for mercy while others are giving good advice. I may not agree with the OP but at least I know enough not to judge. I have never felt digusted with a child but I have felt sad that I couldn't reach them or at least very discouraged. So sometimes a vent is in order. I'd like to conclude by saying that those mothers who have ever taught any age at any parts of their lives are almost always understanding, cooperative and send Thank you notes every so often. Some even take a moment to call. They know that teaching can at times be a most thankless job and fill in the thank yous. It's so easy to judge yet so dangerous! Hatzlacha to all of you with your own kids and students. It's tough out there!!

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 7:43 am

This is OP, and I have read through the entire thread again.
Thank you to all those who actually have been in my shoes, and understand that I am not 'vindictive' or a 'bully', and I am sure that after reading my final post yesterday of all the methods I have tried, truly understand my dilemna and how I have struggled with this all year. Yes, I am quite successful in my field, have even taught classes to other teachers, and you are free to believe what you wish about me. There is no need for me to 'prove' my capability to anyone here, however, I would not have written that if it were not 'nogaya', I.e., that fact that I have been so successful is what troubles me in this case.
I feel sorry for those who were so quick to judge me, as I was only asking for advice and help, not 'publicizing' tzoros, planning on 'destroying neshomos', etc, etc...
One post that really touched me was the one that discusses how this woman (then child) was being molested at the time, and I have to say to her, you are right. I truly did not and do not know what is going on in this child's life, and I am ashamed for not having thought it through carefuly before thinking h needed to be made an example of, which is why I came here, to gain perspective.
To the person who wants to give this to first year teachers, lert me assure you that at that idealistic, unrealistic stage, they cannot even begin to understand to what I am referring, not before having experienced at leat 5-10 years of teaching, with all students across the spectrum. Of course, you are free to do as you wish...
I have ordered Rick Lavoie's book and will read it cover to cover (as I said, I continue to educate myself and take classes to improve, even after so many years one can still learn something).
To the poster who commented, regarding me, saying that she would know me or has known oter teachers'like me' who are always saying that 'I am the one who reminds others that she has been teaching 25 years' I say that that statement rarely comes into play in my case..only in the case here,where the mother herself commented that 'she herself is teaching for 8 years and already knows that this is the problem of the classroom teacher, not the parent' in regards to her own child did I respond in this manner. Please do not judge or lump someone into a group before understanding the entire situation. again, I appreciated everyones feedback, both positive and negative, but I hope you see that not always are cases the same, and that applies to the many other comparisons I have read here that really do not compare to what happened in my case. Much of the netative feedback, though, did shock me into realizing that not only am I NOT one of 'those teachers', but that by doing what I was thinking of doing, I may actually become one! So thanks for that, too...
Finally, thank you to those who understood that I came here for guidance and perspective, and who did not 'label' me, as many of you did..and let me tell you, just as you would not want teachers to label your child, we teachers do not want to be labeled, either! communication is the key with us, just as it is with your child...
I hope to continue to talk to this boy and help him, we are off to a good start. Thanks again! Hug

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 7:56 am

bestseven wrote:

gryp wrote:

Absolutely. In one of the last chapters in Rick Lavoie's book, he discusses WHY advertisements aimed at children are so successful and how we can apply their strategies as teachers.

↑ life'sgreat ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 10:04 am

bestseven wrote:

Actually, some of us that have been teachers, especially those that taught difficult kids, know what it's like, but have a different perspective.

↑ intrigued

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 10:36 am

life'sgreat wrote:

amother wrote:

One post that really touched me was the one that discusses how this woman (then child) was being molested at the time, and I have to say to her, you are right. I truly did not and do not know what is going on in this child's life, and I am ashamed for not having thought it through carefuly before thinking h needed to be made an example of, which is why I came here, to gain perspective.

His suffering doesn't have to be as extreme as molestation but clearly from your post it does seem he has a troubled time at home. That alone should have warned you that he is having a hard life. This is why I am find this thread so sad. I am glad OP that it has brought you to a different perspective and you are taking the steps you are! This will reach the child and hopefully it will impact him for the good.

↑ Fox ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 10:49 am

In reading the OP's responses, etc., I feel it's also important to mention a prime culprit in this sad tale: an ineffective administration.

There are all kinds of red flags here: the family was promised a specific placement, but for some unknown reason that did not happen, nor was anyone apparently given much of an explanation; the OP is not being made privy to any of the reasons for the change or any other details that might enable her to help this child more effectively (or even simply have more rachmones!); the principal is oddly disengaged from the whole affair, offering neither any real help nor even chizzuk.

Anyone who has ever taught will probably agree that you can't always pick your principal/administrator. I've worked for some of the best as well as some of the worst. If we insisted on only working for great administrators, most of us would be out of work.

If the OP wants a long-term relationship with this school, it might be worth a try to convince the principal to build a "team" of teachers who can advise and assist one another in difficult situations. There are three benefits to this:

(1) Sometimes you get suggestions or insights that really help a situation;

(2) Having a "safe haven" in which to discuss problems can take the pressure off before things get really ugly;

(3) There is sometimes strength in numbers -- both in dealing with the principal as well as parents. If a committee of experienced, well-regarded teachers has reviewed a problem and feels that the principal should take action, it will be harder for him/her to avoid doing so. Likewise, parents will find it more difficult to dismiss the conclusions of such a committee.

I don't claim that this idea is a panacea for all problems; sometimes, as other posters have mentioned, there are problems or issues that are beyond the ability of a classroom teacher to solve or rectify. But the concept of a team of educators is a good one, and it can usually be sold to administrators without their feeling threatened.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 6:40 pm

F0x, excellent advice. You are right when you state that the child/parets were not really given a reason as to the change, other than that since the child was 'new', he could probably adjust better than those who have been with the same group for years. that, to me, knowing this child, does not make sense at all, but who listens to teachers?
A team of teachers is a great idea, but in a boys' school, where the Rebbes have their own principal, in the lowere elementary grades the only other teacher who has contact with this boy is the Rebbe. The Rebbe is unwilling to 'get involved' and admits to me that he is unable to deal with the problem and ignores it, and so should I. He is quite old and has been in hte school for many many years, and so he is not really willing to 'work with any English problem" even though he is experiencing t he same issues that I am... Rolling Eyes

This boy is not receiving services (although I have told the principal her should be evaluated , another attempt I have tried since November) so I have noone else on my team, which is why I was disgusted by the situation to begin with.
So although I agree with your idea, it would not work in my case...

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Jun 03 2011, 11:25 am

Well, now I'm the one who is frustrated and disgusted -- not necessarily by the student (though let me reiterate that he definitely sounds like a piece of work!), but by the administration or powers-that-be at this school.

There is no reason whatsoever that rebbeim and secular staff can't/shouldn't work together toward the same goal of providing a top-notch education in all subjects taught by the school. The principal should be working to build teamwork among faculty and address difficult problems head-on.

Let me guess: the principal probably reiterates something like, "These parents don't care much about secular education" to justify a lackadaisical approach. Well, I have never, ever heard any parent from any hashkafa say, "Oh, sure -- give our kids as half-!#$!# a secular education as possible. In fact, completely waste their afternoons!"

When people say that Torah studies are "more important," they are not necessarily advocating sloth in the afternoons; in fact, they are very often open to approaches that give "more bang for the buck" when it comes to secular learning, such as teachers who are able to convey material succinctly and efficiently or technology/programmed instruction that maximizes the learning in a fixed period of time.

However, I agree that it's unlikely you'll significantly change things unless you are really committed to this school and willing to spend a lot of time and energy advocating for a different attitude.

There are definitely "bad eggs" among students of all ages. There are definitely crazy, unrealistic parents. But in my experience, the vast majority of stories are like this one: when everyone's behavior and motivation is picked apart and analyzed, the biggest villain is usually seated at a desk in the school office. What happens when administrators don't do their jobs? Teachers become fed up with situations like this and eventually leave the field. Parents become defensive and suspicious, unwilling to work with people who, like it or not, seem to be saying, "Give me a perfect child, and I'll do a great job educating him!"

In all fairness, this is the most commonly-cited example of the Peter Principle ("people rise to their level of incompetence"). How do we get school administrators? We take the best teachers and give them a key to the office and wish them hatzlacha. Then we hope that they've somehow picked up enough management expertise through osmosis or that they'll be fully capable after attending a 2-day Torah U'Mesorah workshop.

Needless to say, we don't treat the medical professional the same way. If you needed a surgical procedure, would you let the OR nurse do it? Hey, she's assisted at plenty of these and watched some great surgeons! How hard can it be? The fact is that most OR nurses do know a lot about surgical technique. But we don't let them operate on us. Instead, we require a lengthy apprenticeship under the watchful eyes of successful physicians. Halevi we should require even a fraction of such diligence for the people who run our schools.

Okay; "set rant off," as programmers say.

↑ amother ↓

Fri, Jun 03 2011, 5:02 pm

Loved the last two posts! Yes you are right, Fox. I have been in the system long eough to know that in boys schools this is the case, and the Rebbes are the 'revered' ones, and the teachers have no input. I want you to know that from the first day I did try to establish some sort of rapport with the Rebbe, for the kids' sake, but he basically ignored my hellos, and in fact the one time he needed something (after our one dialogue all year about certain kids, this student included, initiated by me) he actually asked me if I was the English teacher Rolling Eyes

and this was in February!! I am new to this particular school but not new to boys schools, and have taught in both litvishe/Chasidish yeshivos. Its the same as far as this goes.
The English principal is a woman, too. translation: gets no support or help, either and can never advocate for us, aslo must bend to parents at all times. Put it all together and its a recipe for diaster (as in my case here). The other principal has no interest in the english dpt and only steps in for 'dire' situations, such as physical confrontations between students, etc.
I did not even get a response such as you describe from the English Principal. what I got was, "well, I tred everything and now you will have to deal with it yourself", and when I requested testing back in sept nothing was done, either.
Most parents in this school are involved and do want excellent secular studies, but they too cannot effect change, or else are put down by the 'powers that be', and as usual, we teachers are the last to be heard.
Principals get their jobs here in a variety of ways that Ive seen
a: family-they are a cusin, mechutan, soninlaw, etc of someone who is a macher or of the dean and 'need a job'.
B; they have been in the 'business' for 100 years and their school closed down and its a 'nebuch'
C; The school has too many secretaries.

↑ Fox

Tue, Jun 07 2011, 10:15 am

OP, I wish I could think of something encouraging to say. I've heard this kind of story all too often; in fact, my DDs went to such a school.

It is utterly heartbreaking, and unless you are a major philanthropist prepared to underwrite the school's budget, there is probably little you can do. As you point out, the "powers that be" are thoroughly committed to the strategy of pitting parents against teachers. To the teachers, they slyly insinuate (or say outright!) that "these parents" are the underlying problem. To the parents, they claim that lack of funds and resources is the real problem -- preventing their teachers from doing a fabulous job.

It's 90 percent lies. With easily-identified exceptions, parents want good education and teachers want to give it. But without guidance and teamwork, that won't happen. The divide between the rebbeim and secular studies teachers tells the whole story.

And then we wring our hands, daven, and give money to organizations to prevent kids from going "OTD." Sometimes I think it's an open miracle that so many of kids -- even those who are ostensibly successful in school -- retain their yiras Shemayim!