Saudi Women Like their Lifestyles

↑ He*Sings*To*Me ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 10:56 pm

I read the article, via the link provided in the original post on this thread...this whole topic is intriguing to me...
Domestic abuse here in Western society crosses demographical/socio-economical lines, and I am sure it does in Saudi Arabia, as well. However, the better educated women in that society are more than likely married to better educated men, where their lot in life is happier than those women and men of lesser means. Poverty seems to exascerbate feelings and expressions of displeasure, anger, frustration, etc. The women interviewed in that article were well-positioned in their society. I don't believe that their opinions accurately represent the majority of women in that country, though. The women interviewed were achievers; whereas the women of lesser means there may hope and dream of more rights, so that they feel they've achieved a more egalitarian status since opportunity for advancement like the ones interviewed seemingly passed them by.
I think both Crayon210 and Chavamom have made valid points in this discussion.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 10:27 am

I think the point to ponder is that Americans think that their way of life is the ultimate and one that the whole world envies. Until American leaders get it into their heads that the religious Moslem world is not interested in promoting American decadence, Western values, democracy, etc. we are in trouble.

Anybody read the Princess Sultana trilogy? The Saudis are evil. Even within the royal family, there's enormous physical and emotional abuse.

↑ chavamom

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 10:38 am

Motek wrote:

Anybody read the Princess Sultana trilogy? The Saudis are evil. Even within the royal family, there's enormous physical and emotional abuse.

Ibn Saud (former king) and his sons were known for their deviant acts. I get the whole point that they are not interested in our lifestyle, I would just posit that they have a tremendous problem of deviant behavior in their society that is accepted. Wife beating is actually sort of benign in terms of some of the things that go on in traditional Islamic societies. I just wouldn't hold them up as some sort of paradigm of happiness nor righteousness.

Last edited by chavamom on Thu, Jan 05 2006, 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 10:43 am

chavamom wrote:

I would just posit that they have a tremendous problem of deviant behavior in their society that is accepted.

true there is lots of deviant behavior in their society that is accepted but YOU and I think it's a problem, they don't ... it's normal for them. Again, bringing out the point that it's not helpful to project our own societal, moral, religious norms on others and expect them to say, "Hey! You're right! Thanks for educating me!"

Quote:

I just wouldn't hold them up as some sort of paradigm of happiness nor righteousness.

I agree, however I do believe that many women are content with their lot there. In many cases it could be because they don't know better but I also think that the women take pride in their culture and religion and most are quite devout.

lucky ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 7:34 pm

Motek wrote:

Anybody read the Princess Sultana trilogy? The Saudis are evil. Even within the royal family, there's enormous physical and emotional abuse.

I was horrified when I read the first book(don;t remember the name).
The younger generation of muslim woman are not ready to put up with as much as their mothers did.

They have forced marriages, honor killings, no respect for women at all.

carrot ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 9:04 pm

I once read a book written by a woman whose family tried to kill her. THe reason was her secret relationship with a neighboring man. He basically seduced her and then abandoned her when her family found out. Nobody blamed him at all. She was burned and almost dead but somehow survived and made her way to France. Does anybody know what I am talking about?

Even before the incident it describes the lives of the women and girls. They are basically slaves and can get beaten for any little infraction.

Quote:

but plenty young women in that book were not protesting the status quo, only sultana ...

I didn't read that book but in the book that I read, nobody was protesting either. They were too beaten down and not even allowed to leave the house except with male supervision for a specific purpose. They were not taught to read and were not allowed to talk freely to each other. So they had no resources with which to even start thinking that life could be different.

I think you can't lump every Muslim society together. There are some Muslim countries which are quite open and advanced. There are different Muslim sects, Shiites, Sunnis etc. and they are very different from eachother. And not all Muslims are Arabs. I know some Muslims and they are very nice and gentle people.

↑ He*Sings*To*Me

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 9:09 pm

Carrot, I enjoyed reading your post just now...point well-taken. It just like when the non jews compare us...the reform here eat country ham, whereas we frum, of course, won't eat by another Jew that doesn't hold to the same level of kashrus that we do. I cannot say I know a great many Muslim, but the ones we do know are peaceful, gentle, loving people.

↑ Mandy ↓

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 7:51 am

Quote:

Hey, if we want to talk beis din, in that era you could take your dh to beis din and they could give him makos. Equal opportunity

Chavamom, I'm still waiting on the cite and quote for this one. As far as I know, the only such thing is if he doesn't want to give a get, the rambam says that he can be hit until he complies. Anything else ?

realeez

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 8:57 am

I was once reading a muslim families bulletin board (I was up very late/early w/ a baby otherwise I wouldn't be so bored) and they were talking about co-wives like it was hte most normal thing in the world and they were totally OK with it... that was so weird for me!

↑ Crayon210

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 9:01 am

I once wrote did a report on polygamy; I went into polygamy chatrooms and onto websites to research it. Though for us it is very weird, it is perfectly normal to many of those who practice it. Of course, there are also those who practice it against their wills, or who really hate the whole setup, but our ideas about marriage and monogamy are generally sociologically formed.

Last edited by Crayon210 on Thu, Dec 27 2007, 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ carrot

Sun, Jan 08 2006, 10:11 am

Motek wrote:

He*Sings*To*Me wrote:

I know a great many Muslim, but the ones we do know are peaceful, gentle, loving people.

did ANY of them officially protest the devastation of 9/11?

About the Muslims I know:

a) They live far, far away from America and they work many hour work days to support their families. I don't think 9-11 was more than a tiny footnote in their lives.

b) When I asked them about terrorism in the name of Islam, they were clearly against doing such things. When I mentioned what about Jihad, they laughed and said that it means fighting against your own Yetzer Hara. (They used different words obviously but that was the point.)

c) One guy I was talking to mentioned that he doesn't think he would ever move to the U.S., U.K., or Australia because he hears that there is an "anti-Muslim" bias. I.e. if they hear his name is Mohammed the job will suddenly become unavailable. About two minutes later he mentioned that he wanted to become Jewish because he heard that all Jews are rich. I thought it was very funny. I told him, "Just like all Muslims are bad, all Jews are rich." I think he got the point.

Blossom ↓

Mon, Jan 09 2006, 4:12 pm

Not without my daughter had a happy ending though. I can't help feeling bad for the muslim women and girls who most don't have a happy ending.
The worst part is, there are many Jewish girls and women that are nebech caught, captured, stuck in the Muslim world.
I know a few horror stories of Israeli and Yemeni Girls that are heartbreaking.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 6:01 am

Mandy wrote:

Quote:

Hey, if we want to talk beis din, in that era you could take your dh to beis din and they could give him makos. Equal opportunity

of course!
source: check out Rambam, hilchos Sanhedrin, for a list of categories

some examples: for eating chametz on Pesach, eating meat and milk together, wearing shatnez