Saudi Women Like their Lifestyles

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Motek ↓

Tue, Jan 03 2006, 8:30 pm

Quote:

"I don't want to drive a car," she said. "I worked hard for my medical degree. Why do I need a driver's license?"

"Women have more than equal rights," added her daughter, Dr. Fouzia Pasha, also an obstetrician and gynecologist, asserting that men have obligations accompanying their rights, and that women can go to court to hold them accountable.

Like some of her friends, one young Saudi woman said Westerners failed to appreciate the advantages of wearing the traditional black head-to-foot covering known as an abaya. "I love my abaya," she explained. "It's convenient and it can be very fashionable."

read the whole article here:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.c.....6.htm

avigayil

Tue, Jan 03 2006, 9:15 pm

What was the point of this article?
Are all of us suppossed to stop driving too?

Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 03 2006, 9:33 pm

What a great article! I really appreciated it. I think it would give people who think of Judaism as a chauvinist society and religion what to think about.

Thanks!

Mandy ↓

Tue, Jan 03 2006, 10:47 pm

Hey motek, do you agree with the Saudi women that their lifestyle reflects gender equality ? I think the point the yated was making and the point that readers of that article could come away with are two very different points...

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Tue, Jan 03 2006, 10:55 pm

Could you elaborate?

supermom

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 4:54 am

my opinion was that they were making it up Confused

have you ever met a arab that was happy with her lifestyle married to an arab I haven't Confused

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 11:02 am

I have only known one Muslim (who my husband doesn't think was an Arab) and she seemed very happy in her traditional lifestyle.

I don't really know any other married Arabs or Muslims, but I do know as a religious married Jewish woman who people assume is treated similarly to the way they assume Saudi women are treated, I can say that I am very happy and would think that many of them are too.

I don't think you can get all your ideas from Reading Lolita in Teheran.

chavamom ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 11:30 am

I wonder if they also like the beatings that their husbands by Muslim law can give them. Recently read a survey that found that over 90% of Muslim husbands in the Middle East put this into practice. I'm sure they think it is for their own betterment. Exploding anger

And in case someone is missing my point - this sounds like appologetics to me.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 11:37 am

May I ask where you read the statistic?

↑ chavamom ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 5:41 pm

I read it in the Jerusalem Post. However, similar statistics abound. That Islamic law permits a man to beat his wife is unquestioned. The extent to which this is practiced is debatable and depends on the country. One interview with two Saudis officials that I read, when quoted an Amnesty International statistic about wife beating, the only reply was 'well, who are you to criticize? There are several studies that say that up to 75% of US women have been beaten.' No one seems to be denying that it is a wide-spread problem in the Middle East.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 7:00 pm

chavamom wrote:

I read it in the Jerusalem Post.

I do not trust the J Post any more than I would trust the National Enquirer!!

chavamom wrote:

However, similar statistics abound.

Where?

chavamom wrote:

That Islamic law permits a man to beat his wife is unquestioned.

What about Judaism?

"See...Rabbi Chaim Yosef David Weiss (a Dayan in Antwerp), Teshuvos Va-Ya'an David vol. 3..., Even Ha-Ezer, no. 102.

"Rabbi Weiss [says]: A husband may beat his wife is she violates the law and cannot be dissuaded from doing so without resort to physical intimidation."***

Based on this psak, I would not equate the law with what is done practically.

chavamom wrote:

The extent to which this is practiced is debatable and depends on the country. One interview with two Saudis officials that I read, when quoted an Amnesty International statistic about wife beating, the only reply was 'well, who are you to criticize? There are several studies that say that up to 75% of US women have been beaten.' No one seems to be denying that it is a wide-spread problem in the Middle East.

If this is true, then it just proves that it's a worldwide cultural problem, not necessarily approved of, but unfortunately something that is found in all cultures and countries. Just because something is done, does not mean that it is approved of by the culture in which the thing takes place.

***Quoted from The Messiah Problem by Chaim Rapoport

↑ chavamom ↓

Wed, Jan 04 2006, 11:27 pm

Since you rejected the source quoted in the Jerusalem Post, Amnesty international and the interview I quoted, what would you consider a kosher source? I'm sure the course I took in Middle Eastern Anthropology wouldn't count for much either.

Comparing it to Judaism is a false comparison. Why? B/c you found a teshuva from one person that said a husband could beat his wife. Hmm. Is that normative halacha? Do you think that if you went to your rav and asked him if your husband could beat you if you decided to stop covering your hair, you think the answer would be yes? Do rabbis advocate this from the pulpit? Is there a law in the torah 'thou mayest beat thy wife'? B/c there is such a phrase in the Koran. Did you hear about the Islamic scholar recently expeled from Spain for his writings on how to beat your wife so that it doesn't leave marks? Hear any condemnation from the Muslim world of this scholar? NO. You hear defense of him!! Ever hear of honor killings? A woman who shames her family can be killed by her family. Hear any condemnations of this phenomena from the mosques?

So what is the point of all this? WHAT *is* the point in defending a bunch of Islamic women who say they are happy with their lot?

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:04 am

If they are happy, why bother them? We should tell them that they're not happy? People have tried that with me, as an Orthodox Jewish woman, and I've greatly resented it! It's a ridiculous American sickness.

He*Sings*To*Me ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:10 am

Same here...I can feel the color rise from my neck up in indignation when I am being chided for my level of observance by non-frum Jews...and, I am not even a Crayon! (Sorry...I couldn't resist! Wink

)

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:10 am

Also, in the times of a functional Beis Din, many of these types of "backwards" laws could also be practiced in the Jewish community. Food for thought.

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:11 am

LOL HSTM, you are funny.

↑ He*Sings*To*Me ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:13 am

Scary, isn't it, how much power over our well-being 3 men could possibly have? (It's a "dish" I don't find appetizing.)

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:20 am

Also, I just found a few sources that claim that wife-beating is antithetical to the Islamic faith. So I guess it's my sources against yours. I don't know how true either of our sources are, but it's at the very least not as black and white as you'd like to make it seem.

↑ He*Sings*To*Me ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:25 am

Who, me? Hey, I'm agreeing with you. Question

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, Jan 05 2006, 1:39 am

Crayon210 wrote:

That is a minority opinion and mostly one that is presented to the West. The "wahabist" understanding (the one taught in the medrasas - their yeshivas) is that he is allowed to beat his wife.

Hey, if we want to talk beis din, in that era you could take your dh to beis din and they could give him makos. Equal opportunity Wink

.

I still think you are barking up the wrong tree.

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