S/O midwinter. Overwhelmed mothers

amother

Ultramarine ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:22 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

I was a kid in the eighties and I'm not seeing much of a difference. Weddings cost around the same (adjusted for inflation). We all went to sem, all went to camp, clothing was actually more expensive (OTOH they weren't cheap China junk).

And where I live six year olds (for better or for worse) roam free.

I agree that things weren't much different back in the day. It's easy for young'ones to say how much harder they have it but it's not always rooted in reality.

I remember most struggling financially, everything being so expensive, birth control being a dirty word, mental health being shoved under the rug out of shame. Kids being bullied & abused without much help available. Cars were old & barely holding on pre the leasing era. Homes were much much smaller.

amother

↑ Razzmatazz ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:22 am

amother Peony wrote:

I guess our communities are very different. Everything was much cheaper in the 80s, even when adjusted for inflation. And the needs and demands were much less.

My father had a spreadsheet of all expenses when I got married. He spent approximately $25,000 total. I recently married off a child and spent around the same amount, though it was a boy. A girl would probably have been $10,000 more, I guess. So less, adjusted for inflation (I estimate inflation as three times the price for everything now).

amother

↑ Blue ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:24 am

amother Peony wrote:

I guess our communities are very different. Everything was much cheaper in the 80s, even when adjusted for inflation. And the needs and demands were much less.

You didn't have the option of looking online for cheap options, certainly not clothes. Finding bargains involved running around and driving out to several stores because you didn't know what you'd find till you got there--no way to know in advance.
Also, who said there was no conformity? I remember a couple of mean girls teasing the few who didn't have shabbos coats (and even though most girls would never have teased them, it def stood out not to have one). And just a couple of years later, keds with the blue label (no knock offs) and baby o skirts were an absolute necessity.
And oot, most girls went to camp and sem. Very few options if you didn't go to sem.

amother

↑ NeonYellow ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:28 am

amother Plum wrote:

It's up to you and me to take the pressure off. We don't must buy into it just because everyone else thinks they have to.

But that’s the issue. We aren’t buying into anything just have an entire week off with bored kids. How do we navigate that without stressing ourselves more and spending money? It’s not easy

amother

↑ Peony ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:29 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

I guess you don't live within the tristate Jewish communities 😀.

Can you let me know where you live, perhaps I should move there.

amother

↑ Midnight ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:32 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

I would like to add that this is very much a frum RW/JPF bubble thing. In the non Jewish and MO world, women have careers but they also don't have as many children (and sometimes none at all, by choice). It's ONLY in one specific bubble of orthodox Jews that we need to do everything- have lots of children AND work. It simply doesn't make sense, it's just not something that most of us are capable of (while simultaneously being good mothers and good wives and good daughters...)

The expectations in our community are over the top and they just need to stop.

The MO community is being crushed as well - thats the world I come from and I see what is happening there. Sure they have careers and less children, but they have a much much higher tuiton burden, and even more socail pressure. Maybe in the MO world outside the Tri-state area it is better, but I am hearing that the places with lower socail pressure have lower paying jobs and less career opportunities with the same high tuitons, so it evans out.

Comparing to the secular world make no sense - there has always been a sacrifice ( and it has always been also financial) in being and staying frum, and in the scheme of things tuition is not as bad as having to choose between conversion or loosing all your property in 1492 or loose the jb that literally only put bread on the table and kept a roof over your head because you kept shabbos, or being confined to not own property or engage in most jobs in the russian pale, or in anything beyond moneylending in medieval times.....

I think it is hard to have a large family and work, which seems to be why you see much smaller family sizes now then in our parents and grandparents day ( I don't see as many double digit families anymore), but to me it seems like we should tackle the high standards of living before we start limiting family sizes to 1-2 kids.

amother

↑ Peony ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:32 am

amother Blue wrote:

Regardless, we ran out to those bargain stores (remember Daffys?), even if it took more time. And we didn't need so many clothing as we do now. We didn't need so many different type of clothing, so many pairs of shoes, different socks etc. We all had much less.

Marrying off kids involved much less as well. The gifts were fewer, the homes weren't decked out to the tee etc.

amother

↑ Razzmatazz ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:35 am

amother Peony wrote:

We had less, but it was more expensive (I didn't go to Daffys and neither did my friends). It sort of evens out I think.

amother

↑ Razzmatazz ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:35 am

amother Peony wrote:

So then please share how you can marry off a kid for 25k. You will do many of us a favor by sharing how it's doable.

Gifts for chosson kallah alone are close to 25k

Are you Lakewood yeshivish? If so, ask your friends. Gifts are most certainly not anywhere near 25k in my circles.

My kids homes are not decked out to a tee, and if they are, I most certainly am not paying for it.

It sounds like you grew up simple and are raising your kids on higher standards. I had the opposite so What

amother

↑ Peony ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:37 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

We had less, but it was more expensive (I didn't go to Daffys and neither did my friends). It sort of evens out I think.

Disagree. It wasn't more expensive at all. My parents were able to buy 3 outfits (local) for the price we pay for 1 outfit today.

My uniform - skirt, shirt and sweater cost about $40 in total. Today the sweater alone is a about $50.

amother

↑ Razzmatazz ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:40 am

amother Peony wrote:

Right that's pretty much inflation. I paid 600 a month rent when I got married, now a comparable apartment is 1800 or so. Salaries were lower then too. I estimate everything is three times the price it was then.

So you're paying around $90 for everything? Yes, that's inflation. It was a long time ago...

amother

↑ Midnight

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:41 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

Thats actually my point

We all went to camp and sem, so we expect to send our kids to camp and sem.

Except that COL have ballooned, salaries have not gone up to match, an even if you both have the same jobs as your parents you probably wont be able to afford what they can.

amother

↑ Peony ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:42 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

You are missing the key point. Salaries haven't kept pace with inflation. The average persons salary isn't 3 times as much as back in the 80s.

So what we have now is cost of living has tripled, and salaries aren't keeping up. That leads to unsustainable living. Which is the point here.

amother

↑ Razzmatazz ↓

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:46 am

amother Peony wrote:

Look at this chart:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/se.....A672N

Salaries have actually gone up, adjusted to inflation.

Anecdotally, my father's salary in 1985 was approximately a third of the salary for a similar job in 2024.

amother

↑ Peony

Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:54 am

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

I think society as a whole, especially in the Jewish community, will beg to differ. That's one thing few people will dispute. Salaries have NOT kept pace with inflation.

Anyone can find a random chart to explain their perspective and personal anecdotes doesn't speak too much. The one thing that most people agree with is that inflation has dramatically outpaced salary increases.