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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
amother
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 Sun, Jan 05 2025, 8:33 am
Im reading the midwinter vacation threads and I'm seeing something else.
There's a serious amount of women who are operating at seriously overwhelming stress levels and just one extra thing is throwing us off. (Btw I didn't respond on that thread but I relate to OP).
Some women are doing ok.
But I'm seeing so many women with a list a mile long. Pressure. Pushing. Trying. Being told that they need to more and more. Money. And it's just too much
You must work to pay tuition
You must entertain your kids
You must not complain
You must have normal meals and clean laundry and a reasonable clean house
You must run around with therapists and tutors and appointments
You must pay a fortune for all that stuff
The expectations of mothers are insane. More and more and more.
We're constantly on the brink that just one more thing is going to topple us
That OP is not frustrated about midwinter per se. Just the level of expectations and never ending needs and midwinter is pushing her over.
At least that's how I'm reading the story.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 8:37 am
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I feel like the op of that thread keeps on creating her own spin offs.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 8:55 am
| amother Forestgreen wrote: | | I feel like the op of that thread keeps on creating her own spin offs. |
True or not, many women are in the same shoes, hence why the threads gain so much traction.
We overburden the women in our communities, and then guilt them when they can't perform like superwomen. It creates a lot of unhealthy family dynamics. The long term outcome of this can't be good.
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amother
Lawngreen
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 8:58 am
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Just saying. Take off from work and entertain your kids for a week is not "just one more thing".
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ddmom
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:00 am
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You might be right but what would be the solution?
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:06 am
| amother Peony wrote: | True or not, many women are in the same shoes, hence why the threads gain so much traction.
We overburden the women in our communities, and then guilt them when they can't perform like superwomen. It creates a lot of unhealthy family dynamics. The long term outcome of this can't be good. |
I don't think fathers are less overwhelemed then mothers. If anything, they have more expectations on them then ever - they used to be a good dad if they where good providers. Now they need to learn, provide the never ending needs, and chip in at home because the mothers are working really hard as well.
If we look at history, we probably have it better then jews ever did. But we do have it a lot harder then many of our mothers and grandmothers had it There was this brief point in history from the 50's - 2008 where financially women had it much easier, and if a husband had a decent job he could provide for the family on community standards, with the wife contributing by working part time at most.
But honestly - do you think we have it more stressful then the people living in Russian Pale, or on the Lower East Side tenements, or under turkish rule?
Our lives are exteremely stressful - but a lot of it is because we THINK we should be able to have the lives our mothers had, and the world has shifted.
Signed
Full time working mother of a family, who is a history buff and is grateful to be dealing with the chinuch and financial stresses of 2025. I think it beats 1925, 1825, 1725 ect by a long shot 
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:13 am
| ddmom wrote: | | You might be right but what would be the solution? |
Honestly, to cool on the expectations of mothers.
Let us vent about midwinter.
Stop telling us that our kids deserve the memories and the trips and all
Stop heaping on the guilt, telling me I'm a horrible mother if my kid doesn't get the tutor he needs, if I hate vacation, if I'm just not meeting every expectation every time.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:19 am
| amother Midnight wrote: | I don't think fathers are less overwhelemed then mothers. If anything, they have more expectations on them then ever - they used to be a good dad if they where good providers. Now they need to learn, provide the never ending needs, and chip in at home because the mothers are working really hard as well.
If we look at history, we probably have it better then jews ever did. But we do have it a lot harder then many of our mothers and grandmothers had it There was this brief point in history from the 50's - 2008 where financially women had it much easier, and if a husband had a decent job he could provide for the family on community standards, with the wife contributing by working part time at most.
But honestly - do you think we have it more stressful then the people living in Russian Pale, or on the Lower East Side tenements, or under turkish rule?
Our lives are exteremely stressful - but a lot of it is because we THINK we should be able to have the lives our mothers had, and the world has shifted.
Signed
Full time working mother of a family, who is a history buff and is grateful to be dealing with the chinuch and financial stresses of 2025. I think it beats 1925, 1825, 1725 ect by a long shot |
Yes, I think as a whole we have it harder than previous generations, and harder than fathers too. While there are some fathers who do help significantly at home, we are still at the place where the household burden is still mostly the woman's responsibility. But many of those woman equally carry the parnossoh responsibility, so they are doing the work of two people. People worked hard in previous generations, but few women carried double burdens like we do today.
To add to that, we have created a society where conformity reigns. The concept of living within our means is non-existent because everyone needs to be and do the same. That never existed previously. If there was no money, kids didn't go to seminary. If there was no money, the kids were married off accordingly. The parents weren't forced to pay $100k for a wedding just to be the same like everyone else.
And we are so much more materialistic. Parents are pushed to provide so much more for their kids, even when they don't have the money. They are told otherwise they are doing long term damage to the kids. There are so many expectations and demands of parents these days that never existed before.
Also, in previous generations newlyweds started life with the expectation that they need to support themselves and prepared themselves accordingly. Nowadays, we burden the parents with supporting them, and don't prepare them to be self-sufficient. That's a double edged sword cause it overburdens the parents and has the newlyweds at a disadvantage to catch up later in life.
Now add to this inflation and their rising costs of living where salaries don't keep up, it's a recipe for trouble.
To summarize though, many of these struggles are self imposed hardships. If we stop with this extreme conformity, stop with adding crazy expectations to our lives and in turn teach society to live within their means, and help newlyweds start life with financial stability, a lot of this pressure will go away.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:26 am
| amother Peony wrote: | Yes, I think as a whole we have it harder than previous generations, and harder than fathers too. While there are some fathers who do help significantly at home, we are still at the place where the household burden is still mostly the woman's responsibility. But many of those woman equally carry the parnossoh responsibility, so they are doing the work of two people. People worked hard in previous generations, but few women carried double burdens like we do today.
To add to that, we have created a society where conformity reigns. The concept of living within our means is non-existent because everyone needs to be and do the same. That never existed previously. If there was no money, kids didn't go to seminary. If there was no money, the kids were married off accordingly. The parents weren't forced to pay $100k for a wedding just to be the same like everyone else.
And we are so much more materialistic. Parents are pushed to provide so much more for their kids, even when they don't have the money. They are told otherwise they are doing long term damage to the kids. There are so many expectations and demands of parents these days that never existed before.
Also, in previous generations newlyweds started life with the expectation that they need to support themselves and prepared themselves accordingly. Nowadays, we burden the parents with supporting them, and don't prepare them to be self-sufficient. That's a double edged sword cause it overburdens the parents and has the newlyweds at a disadvantage to catch up later in life.
Now add to this inflation and their rising costs of living where salaries don't keep up, it's a recipe for trouble.
To summarize though, many of these struggles are self imposed hardships. If we stop with this extreme conformity, stop with adding crazy expectations to our lives and in turn teach society to live within their means, and help newlyweds start life with financial stability, a lot of this pressure will go away. |
No way do we have it harder than the generation of sweatshop workers/immense pressure to work on shabbos or face eviction and hunger. Nor do we have it harder than post WWII immigration and survivors starting over in a new country from scratch with not a penny. You are describing a relatively short period from probably 1970-2010.
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amother
Stoneblue
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:28 am
As someone who works in a school I can say that there is more vacation then most other jobs. I can see how that gets overwhelming to those who have jobs out of a school and constantly need to cover child care. For most ladies, their paid time off goes to chol hamoed and yom tov itself. These excessive breaks make it very hard for the average family.
To add I heard some schools out of town do chanukah vacation as midwinter. I think that makes a lot of sense. Why the need for 2 nice breaks so close together.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:35 am
| amother Peony wrote: | Yes, I think as a whole we have it harder than previous generations, and harder than fathers too. While there are some fathers who do help significantly at home, we are still at the place where the household burden is still mostly the woman's responsibility. But many of those woman equally carry the parnossoh responsibility, so they are doing the work of two people. People worked hard in previous generations, but few women carried double burdens like we do today.
To add to that, we have created a society where conformity reigns. The concept of living within our means is non-existent because everyone needs to be and do the same. That never existed previously. If there was no money, kids didn't go to seminary. If there was no money, the kids were married off accordingly. The parents weren't forced to pay $100k for a wedding just to be the same like everyone else.
And we are so much more materialistic. Parents are pushed to provide so much more for their kids, even when they don't have the money. They are told otherwise they are doing long term damage to the kids. There are so many expectations and demands of parents these days that never existed before.
Also, in previous generations newlyweds started life with the expectation that they need to support themselves and prepared themselves accordingly. Nowadays, we burden the parents with supporting them, and don't prepare them to be self-sufficient. That's a double edged sword cause it overburdens the parents and has the newlyweds at a disadvantage to catch up later in life.
Now add to this inflation and their rising costs of living where salaries don't keep up, it's a recipe for trouble.
To summarize though, many of these struggles are self imposed hardships. If we stop with this extreme conformity, stop with adding crazy expectations to our lives and in turn teach society to live within their means, and help newlyweds start life with financial stability, a lot of this pressure will go away. |
I would like to add that this is very much a frum RW/JPF bubble thing. In the non Jewish and MO world, women have careers but they also don't have as many children (and sometimes none at all, by choice). It's ONLY in one specific bubble of orthodox Jews that we need to do everything- have lots of children AND work. It simply doesn't make sense, it's just not something that most of us are capable of (while simultaneously being good mothers and good wives and good daughters...)
The expectations in our community are over the top and they just need to stop.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:38 am
| amother Blue wrote: | | No way do we have it harder than the generation of sweatshop workers/immense pressure to work on shabbos or face eviction and hunger. Nor do we have it harder than post WWII immigration and survivors starting over in a new country from scratch with not a penny. You are describing a relatively short period from probably 1970-2010. |
It's different type of hardships so it's not easily comparable. WWII survivors are obviously in a class in itself. And I agree that in the religious aspect, we do have it easier than previous generations. But we do have it harder for day-to-day living and everyday life.
Also, in previous generations it was the poor who struggled most. In this generation it's the middle class who is at their breaking point. We have been so successful in helping the poor, that we created a new poor of the lower working class. We have given so generously to the poor that we have raised the standard of living for everyone else. This has created untenable expectations for the middle class, and they are stranded, barely surviving in this new society where conformity is demanded.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:52 am
| amother Peony wrote: | It's different type of hardships so it's not easily comparable. WWII survivors are obviously in a class in itself. And I agree that in the religious aspect, we do have it easier than previous generations. But we do have it harder for day-to-day living and everyday life.
Also, in previous generations it was the poor who struggled most. In this generation it's the middle class who is at their breaking point. We have been so successful in helping the poor, that we created a new poor of the lower working class. We have given so generously to the poor that we have raised the standard of living for everyone else. This has created untenable expectations for the middle class, and they are stranded, barely surviving in this new society where conformity is demanded. |
I was a kid in the 80s and believe me, the middle class struggled then too. They lived on a much lower standard than the middle class of today. The poor class was desperately poor. I don't think it's a bad thing that standards are not that low anymore.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 9:58 am
| amother Blue wrote: | | No way do we have it harder than the generation of sweatshop workers/immense pressure to work on shabbos or face eviction and hunger. Nor do we have it harder than post WWII immigration and survivors starting over in a new country from scratch with not a penny. You are describing a relatively short period from probably 1970-2010. |
Does it matter if we have it harder or easier? It's not good if we are constantly close to our breaking point. It's not good if we can't be present and calm mothers, wives and daughters, at least some of the time. There are many families who figure it out and the mothers are not so overwhelmed. Sorry, but I think this is something that needs to change. It is simply not good for families/community as a whole. Overwhelmed mothers raising the next generation of klal yisroel is not a recipe for a happy next generation.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:02 am
| amother Razzmatazz wrote: | | Does it matter if we have it harder or easier? It's not good if we are constantly close to our breaking point. It's not good if we can't be present and calm mothers, wives and daughters, at least some of the time. There are many families who figure it out and the mothers are not so overwhelmed. Sorry, but I think this is something that needs to change. It is simply not good for families/community as a whole. Overwhelmed mothers raising the next generation of klal yisroel is not a recipe for a happy next generation. |
I don't think this is new. I def saw a lot of very stressed out mothers/women when I was a kid. They were tough and could be battle axes because they were overwhelmed with big families and not enough money.
Personally as someone who grew up then and saw the start of the otd issue emerge late 80s/early 90s, I think some of it at the very least can be directly attributed to that.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:03 am
| amother Blue wrote: | | I was a kid in the 80s and believe me, the middle class struggled then too. They lived on a much lower standard than the middle class of today. The poor class was desperately poor. I don't think it's a bad thing that standards are not that low anymore. |
I was also a kid of the 80s and the day-to-day struggles aren't comparable.
Raising the standards to this level is a very bad thing. Where every kallah is expected to be married off for $100k, where newlyweds are expected to be supported, where sem is a must, where camp is a mistake, where vacations, trips, gadgets and certain clothing are expected. Where mothers are expected to work, run the home, chauffeur kids around to all expected activities, watch their kids for every waking minute etc..
If you are a child of the 80s, do you remember how we were able to roam free without parental supervision? How I was walking to school myself at the age of 6? That alone is non-existent today. Parents can't leave their children unattended until they are much older. This is new to the recent generations, and that in itself is an additional stressor.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:07 am
| amother Peony wrote: | I was also a kid of the 80s and the day-to-day struggles aren't comparable.
Raising the standards to this level is a very bad thing. Where every kallah is expected to be married off for $100k, where newlyweds are expected to be supported, where sem is a must, where camp is a mistake, where vacations, trips, gadgets and certain clothing are expected. Where mothers are expected to work, run the home, chauffeur kids around to all expected activities, watch their kids for every waking minute etc..
If you are a child of the 80s, do you remember how we were able to roam free without parental supervision? How I was walking to school myself at the age of 6? That alone is non-existent today. Parents can't leave their children unattended until they are much older. This is new to the recent generations, and that in itself is an additional stressor. |
I grew up oot and the mothers were extremely stressed out with constant carpooling. Very on edge. Very unpleasant, and as a kid, you felt the tension, whether it was your mom or someone else's. Sure, we played outside and roamed around unsupervised but there was a lot of unreported (at the time) molestation. I had a couple of classmates experience men exposing themselves while they were walking to a friend's house. Not a few boys in the area were molested by the same guy in my local shul (because yeah the fathers were not on top of the kids and the mothers sent out the kids to go to shul by the age of 5 or 6 because they needed a break). Which btw is also something that contributed to the otd issue.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:09 am
| amother Peony wrote: | I was also a kid of the 80s and the day-to-day struggles aren't comparable.
Raising the standards to this level is a very bad thing. Where every kallah is expected to be married off for $100k, where newlyweds are expected to be supported, where sem is a must, where camp is a mistake, where vacations, trips, gadgets and certain clothing are expected. Where mothers are expected to work, run the home, chauffeur kids around to all expected activities, watch their kids for every waking minute etc..
If you are a child of the 80s, do you remember how we were able to roam free without parental supervision? How I was walking to school myself at the age of 6? That alone is non-existent today. Parents can't leave their children unattended until they are much older. This is new to the recent generations, and that in itself is an additional stressor. |
I was a kid in the eighties and I'm not seeing much of a difference. Weddings cost around the same (adjusted for inflation). We all went to sem, all went to camp, clothing was actually more expensive (OTOH they weren't cheap China junk).
And where I live six year olds (for better or for worse) roam free.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:16 am
| amother Razzmatazz wrote: | I was a kid in the eighties and I'm not seeing much of a difference. Weddings cost around the same (adjusted for inflation). We all went to sem, all went to camp, clothing was actually more expensive (OTOH they weren't cheap China junk).
And where I live six year olds (for better or for worse) roam free. |
I guess our communities are very different. Everything was much cheaper in the 80s, even when adjusted for inflation. And the needs and demands were much less.
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amother
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Sun, Jan 05 2025, 10:21 am
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It's up to you and me to take the pressure off. We don't must buy into it just because everyone else thinks they have to.
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