S/o- does your DH ever potch?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:08 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

I totally and completely understand your point. I may not agree with all examples but I do understand that a potch is necessary when teaching a value.
As per With Hearts Full of Love. He gave the example of lying. For him it was a strong enough boundary that when breached he felt it warranted a potch. Now he's not talking about a full on smack across the face but rather a small petchele on the hand to teach the child 'this is a red line, you may not cross'

No your child will not be harmed by this happening once or twice or even three times throughout their childhood. He does stress to give it sparingly and ONLY when you believe in your value system and understand why you're doing it. Not from an emotional place.

This generation has gone so far to the other end of the spectrum that this is considered abuse when it is not!
Abuse is defined as 'use something for bad effect or for a bad purpose'.
This does not fall into this category. This teaches your child a value system. Now you cannot potch your child for lying or hitting when you do the same that is the opposite of chinuch and teaching values. If you have something that you are passionate about and do correctly, for example never lying then you are teaching your child by example that this is a hard line you won't cross.

Now I understand the culture of this site and already know that my words will be twisted, mashed, and repurposed to mean something I didn't. Have fun with that.

I agree with you this generation has gone way overboard.

amother

↑ Mintgreen ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:13 pm

amother OP wrote:

So for the past history of mankind until the late 1990s when some psychologists labeled it terrible and abusive everyone was emotionally damaged? Sorry but I Do not buy that.

Of course they were not. They were healthier.
My mother hit with a wooden spoon and my father with a belt. I appreciate it even though it hurt. I mostly deserved it and it taught me resilience and boundaries and a lot more.

amother

↑ Blueberry ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:35 pm

I don't know science about this, but I do think that because society currently considers physical punishments problematic, that makes it more problematic.
If you know that every single kid in your class is hit when they misbehave, its different than if you see than Yankel and Shmully have consequences like losing a treat while your own parents hit.
Also, kids will hear at some point that hitting children is abuse. If they were okay until then, this info can really confuse them.

Natural consequences are much easier to learn from. Hitting teaches hitting, fear, helplessness.

↑ mommy3b2c ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:47 pm

amother Blueberry wrote:

He'd never ever. If they run in the street, that's the rare type of situation in which he'll yell. Not hit. We'd also grab the kid and bring them back, which could be they get a little squished, but it's not meant to punish, it's just to get them quickly back to safety.

Using "tap" instead of "hit" sounds just like rationalizing. Tapping someone is how you get their attention. Literally tapping a kid's hand, arm, mouth, whatever, would not be traumatizing, but it would also teach them nothing, so I have trouble believe that people who use that word are actually tapping. (And then extra rationalizing by saying "lightly tap." That's barely noticeable!) If it's harder than you'd tap someone who did nothing wrong, then it's hitting. It may not be a slap, but it's hitting.

I can only speak for myself . It’s a tap. On a 2 year old . And it doesn’t hurt physically. Emotionally it hurts because they see they crossed a line . It comes along with me looking at them very sternly and saying “no no, big boo boo.” And then they cry and I hold them and they never so much as set a foot in the street again .

But it’s irrelevant to the op. Her examples of hitting a child for chutzpah has nothing to do with this .

amother

Pear

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:49 pm

I'm not reading this whole thread, but no, not at all. We do not hit. As a general rule. My husband is even more against it than I am.
My parents would sometimes hit, and generally it was my mother, not my father.
The only time we would hit our children is if they're doing something dangerous, like running into the street or playing with an electrical outlet.
I think it is traumatic though. I just hope it's directed towards staying away from that danger.

amother

↑ Mintgreen ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:51 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

I don't understand. Even if it hurts, what's the big deal? A car would hurt much more chulila.
What I don't like is when my cousins 15 or 18 month old runs to the drapes and keeps touching them so she keeps him a small tap, then a harder tap, then two hard taps. For drapes. The reality is that it is not so much about the drapes as it is teaching the child to always listen to a mother, but sigh.

amother

↑ Blueberry

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:54 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

What's the purpose of the tap that the stern "no no" doesn't accomplish?
Disapproval on its own can be very reinforcing.

amother

Dill

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:58 pm

I always cringe when ppl say that the older generations that hit spanked ect grew up better, yes sure... Hitler was hit by his parents so was the entire natzi party, Stalin is also a great example, the Spanish inquisition. . These ppl weren't better ppls cause of the hitting. And btw the Arabs are very Into physically disaplining their kids look how they look. I think that this hitting made them bitter and angrey and the sec that had a chance to hit someone they went for it all the way.
Yes our generation might be a little stupid, but I'd rather have stupidity than voilince.

amother

Peony

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:06 pm

amother OP wrote:

If a father is in the room and a child angrily tells the mother I hate you your are a **** you don’t think the father should take the child into another room and give them a slap? There are certain lines that can’t be crossed that a potch has a place for. A slap teaches a child immediate boundaries and to never cross a certain line. The state of society has deteriorated greatly since a slap or parental authority became taboo. I think many people who are arguing “never… abuse” are influenced by not Jewish ideology. Many gedolim and frum circles have no problem with a potch. Yes I know there are several who are against but many more are not. No one is talking about daily slapping or consistently hitting. There’s a time and place for strong authority.

No I don’t and my husband would never ever hit for that!

Hitting teaches what not to do but not what yes to do

I would take my child aside and tell her you can never talk like that, what is a better way to express how you are feeling? And have her go back and say I’m sorry along with what she meant to express in an appropriate way.

amother

Chocolate ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:34 pm

No, dh doesn't potch and neither do I.

Many many gedolim will tell you that times have changed and now it is NOT advised.
Yes, generations ago it was the norm and they were able to handle it, but just as we listened to our gedolim then, we listen to them now as well.

The gedolim and experts now say NOT to potch. That you can do MORE harm by potching.

It's not the same world it used to be and people are more fragile emotionally than they used to be.

And that doesn't mean letting the kids do whatever they want. There are other ways and methods of teaching kids.

amother

↑ Chocolate ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

In real life no one I know would stand by and allow their kid to do that as a father especially. Please be honest do you do this in your family when the situation warrants it and the child is young enough that it won’t cause shame and trauma?

Why do you think it's either potch or do nothing????

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

Consequences for extremely unacceptable behavior are not knocking down a child l. A punishment should hurt figuratively or literally or it is not effective. It’s not about your pride again. I feel like you missed the point. Cursing a parent is a very serious aveirah, this is just an example and has never happened in my own house, a father should give a swift consequence to immediately stop that from taking root in a child.

Cursing a parent is an aveirah after Bar/Bas Mitzvah, at which time any sort of potch would be highly inappropriate. Before that age, it is a negative behavior, and the important thing is more to understand the context of where it's coming from, and whether it's a behavior that is likely to continue, and how to effectively deal with the route of the problem.

I also feel to some extent, reading your posts, that you take this kind of verbal altercation with your kids very personally, to the extent that you need your husband to come in and rescue you and protect you from it. My own perspective and experience with my kids and chutzpah, especially when it was at a younger age, was that it was not personal and more the child's frustration with something, and internalizing it was counterproductive to chinuch. Rather, I could discuss with my child better ways to express whatever frustration they were feeling, and teach them better and more positive communication skills. (often they are just looking to express to you the extent of their angst - I'm so upset right now, and I need you to realize how upset I am, so I'm going to call you something really provacative so you will finally get it!) A potch would just shut them down. A discussion gave them better tools = chinuch - prepared them to express themselves more effectively.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:44 pm

amother Mintgreen wrote:

I'm sorry honey. No, this is not healthy parenting at all. The fact that you appreciate it and think you deserved it is so sad.
Resilience and boundaries can be taught without pulling the belt off.

ETA I just want to point out - with apologies to you mintgreen - how a thread about potching, and a small tap, etc...can quickly escalate to it being okay to hit with a spoon or a belt, and a post saying that this is healthy parenting.

Last edited by Chayalle on Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ OP ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:46 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I clearly told you it’s not about that. You seem to hear what you want in posts.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

I clearly told you it’s not about that. You seem to hear what you want in posts.

You are trying to say it will stop inappropriate behavior in a very young child, before it takes root. I am saying that even if it may accomplish that (I think it depends on the nature of the child - in some kids it will make it worse - the type of child who wishes they can hit you back) you are losing something by doing this. And that is - you are losing understanding the child and why the behavior was occurring in the first place. You are losing the opportunity to teach your child self-expression in a positive way, by shutting them down.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:55 pm

amother OP wrote:

So for the past history of mankind until the late 1990s when some psychologists labeled it terrible and abusive everyone was emotionally damaged? Sorry but I Do not buy that.

My parenting mentor, Mrs. Leah Trenk, said that there have always been - in every single generation - better and worse parents. She spoke of her own parents very reverently - and about how positively and lovingly they parented - and she isn't young. She brought examples from history of many years ago, including a writing from ancient Egyptian history about the chutzpah of the young generation as opposed to the older generation (we were all sure it had been written more recently) to prove to us that there have always been those saying the current generation is terrible, and of course when WE grew up we were much more perfect, etc..etc...

For the past history of mankind there have always been those who were abused by their parents. And some more, and some less, and some only slightly. And some not at all but they could have been taught better. And some whose parents gave a one-size-fits-all type of chinuch that worked for some of their children but not others who would have needed a different approach.

Humanity is pretty consistent in one area and that is - it's always diverse. LOL.

I took a parenting course with her thru Counterforce (Torah Umesorah) and their motto is that good parents can become better parents. I think that has always been true, in all generations.