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Forum
-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Chanukah
amother
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 Thu, Jan 02 2025, 12:50 pm
| amother DarkViolet wrote: | Where was I not respecting your way? I am not the one saying what is emes and what is not. I have not even said what ‘my way’ is throughout this conversation. You are making assumptions.
I am well aware of the history and origins of chassidus but I do not see why your husband’s anonymous rebbeim should be hailed as more valid than well known rebbes. Your way is perfectly acceptable and so are others. I would never be so presumptuous to proclaim what is emes. |
Ur very defensive. I’ve been totally respectful and I’ve just been explaining why I was asking for sources and what they are important to me. That’s all. If that’s not your mehalech move on. I won’t apologize for my mesorah and our definition of emes.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 12:53 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Ur very defensive. I’ve been totally respectful and I’ve just been explaining why I was asking for sources and what they are important to me. That’s all. If that’s not your mehalech move on. I won’t apologize for my mesorah and our definition of emes. |
Saying my way is emes and other ways are not real Torah is disrespectful. You don’t need to apologize for your mesorah, only for your holier than thou attitude.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 12:56 pm
| amother DarkViolet wrote: | | Saying my way is emes and other ways are not real Torah is disrespectful. You don’t need to apologize for your mesorah, only for your holier than thou attitude. |
I don’t remember saying that at all. I’m explaining my mesorah…
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 12:59 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | His words come from his Rebbeim who follow a mehalech deeply rooted in mesorah. Coming straight from the Torah down to the mishna and to gemorah and to the rishonim etc. etc. |
Just curious, how recent is a source "allowed" according to your dh to be considered mesorah?
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 1:06 pm
| amother Glitter wrote: | | Just curious, how recent is a source "allowed" according to your dh to be considered mesorah? |
I’ll try to ask him more specifically but I believe it’s something that can be traced to rishonim. Meaning the shulchan aruch is an achron but his work is based on the rishonim (who can be traced to the gemorah etc)
In our mesorah a thought or idea has to be “muchruch” meaning based on something concrete not just a nice thought or a cute twist in words etc. (With the word muchruch I just gave myself away to what yeshiva my husband is a Talmud of lol)
However it’s a general non chassidish, I guess Litvish? Concept. The Litvish gedolai hatorah will always have their thoughts based on achromin who are based in rishonim etc.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 1:11 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I’ll try to ask him more specifically but I believe it’s something that can be traced to rishonim. Meaning the shulchan aruch is an achron but his work is based on the rishonim (who can be traced to the gemorah etc)
In our mesorah a thought or idea has to be “muchruch” meaning based on something concrete not just a nice thought or a cute twist in words etc. (With the word muchruch I just gave myself away to what yeshiva my husband is a Talmud of lol)
However it’s a general non chassidish, I guess Litvish? Concept. The Litvish gedolai hatorah will always have their thoughts based on chromium who are based in rishonim etc. |
I very highly doubt that thousands of chassidim are shukling away at their rebbe's tishen davening their hearts out to Hashem for ehrliche kinder as zos chanukah is a segula, based on a nice thought or a cute twist of words, as you call it.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 1:12 pm
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I think this is where I bow out. This discussion become very adversarial and I don’t want that to continue. Everyone should be proud of their mesorah and connection to Hashem and Torah is the most important thing, however that happens.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 1:13 pm
| amother Glitter wrote: | | I very highly doubt that thousands of chassidim are shukling away at their rebbe's tishen davening their hearts out to Hashem for ehrliche kinder as zos chanukah is a segula, based on a nice thought or a cute twist of words, as you call it. |
Again you are putting words I. My mouth I didn’t mean that at all! I was explaining what muchruch means more as a concept or like regarding giving a dvar Torah etc.
And I have no idea! Like I said the conclusion is that yes Zos Chanukah seems to be chassidish thing.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 1:34 pm
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It’s ok, you obviously didn’t realize how condescending you are coming across and probably don’t mean to be. But your whole OP sounds like this- is the zos chanuka hype a real thing or just some chassidish nonsense with no real basis like the authentic way I practice Judaism? Cuz my husband follows legit rabbis and not a questionable rebbe
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 2:20 pm
| amother Glitter wrote: | Do litvaks learn chimush?
How do you interpret 'קדושים תהי? |
See Rashi, naval birshus haTorah, etc.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 2:21 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | My husband actually spoke to his Rebbi. It does seem to be a chassidish concept. For us it’s a day to daven like any day of Chanukah. |
With extra gratitude and praise. That's how we daven on any day of Chanukah.
Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, Jan 02 2025, 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 2:23 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | It’s a slippery slope to incorporate anything and everything that sounds nice and inspiring. Like I said earlier kavyachol a Christian worship song can be inspiring too. Torah is the only emes |
With all the great chinuch you probably got, formal and informal, from the home, etc., you don't trust yourself enough to discriminate?
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flowerpower
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 6:25 pm
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Zos Chanukah was always a big day here. One you can daven for anything
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amother
Winterberry
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Thu, Jan 02 2025, 11:41 pm
| Little bird wrote: | | I have seen it sourced from the rishiner. Definitely a valid chassidisher source. |
How are you answering op's question?
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amother
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:35 am
| amother DarkViolet wrote: | So then what is the source of your husband’s words? Why is it not a concept for you?
I’m sorry, but I have met people like this in real life and it really bothers me. A friend of mine once told me that her father believes a rebbe is like avodah zara. I completely understand why he doesn’t understand this concept, as he is a BT with no minhagim or mesorah. But to disparage the avodas Hashem of thousands of people, many of them very learned and wise, because you picked up a mishna berura and it wasn’t there? Do you realize how that sounds?
Just because you have no concept of it does not mean it’s not emes. Please open your mind a little bit and understand that your way is not the emes way to the exclusion of others. |
I have news for you: This person is by far not the only one who thinks like that.
I don't think people who grew up chassidish can even begin to comprehend what their hashkafah looks like to people who are completely unfamiliar with it.
I happen to have close chassidish relatives and a few chassidish friends, so I am familiar with their mehalech, but when I was in seminary in EY, a regular BY/yeshivish one with girls from all over the world and from all kinds of backgrounds (except chassidish), they took up to see a rebbe's tish one Shabbos in Chaifa. Again, I had seen this before so it was nothing remarkable to me, but for the dozens of girls seeing this for the first time, it was like watching a spectacle from another culture--or another religion.
When we got back to school after Shabbos, there were so, so many questions. Some girls said it looked like they thought the Rebbe was G-d. Or an avodah zarah. Or mashiach. Yes, that's what it can look like to people seeing this for the first time.
I personally still find myself scratching my head at some customs/hashkafos of chassidim. One thing that I really don't get is the different way they view davening at a kever of a tzaddik. I know this is a huge discussion and I've learned a lot about it through various in-depth shiurim, but I just couldn't find any mehalech that makes the following okay: There was an ad by a chassidish organization calling for donations to be made on Rochel Imainu's yahrtzei, because "Mama Rochel gives out gifts on her yahrtzeit."
What? Are we now subscribing physical power in this world to meisim? I don't want to even write the words out for what this sounds like, but yes, things like this can be really problematic for non-chassidim.
I mean no disrespect, just curiosity.
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Ruchi
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 12:54 am
| amother Waterlily wrote: | | There was an ad by a chassidish organization calling for donations to be made on Rochel Imainu's yahrtzei, because "Mama Rochel gives out gifts on her yahrtzeit." |
As a chassidish woman, I find the wording repulsive offensive and disrespectful. Whoever wrote this ad was looking to lure and entice potential donators in a very ugly manner.
This is not a chassidishe acceptable mehalech to quote: "Mama Rochel gives out gifts on her yahrtzeit."
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amother
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:06 am
| amother Waterlily wrote: | I have news for you: This person is by far not the only one who thinks like that.
I don't think people who grew up chassidish can even begin to comprehend what their hashkafah looks like to people who are completely unfamiliar with it.
I happen to have close chassidish relatives and a few chassidish friends, so I am familiar with their mehalech, but when I was in seminary in EY, a regular BY/yeshivish one with girls from all over the world and from all kinds of backgrounds (except chassidish), they took up to see a rebbe's tish one Shabbos in Chaifa. Again, I had seen this before so it was nothing remarkable to me, but for the dozens of girls seeing this for the first time, it was like watching a spectacle from another culture--or another religion.
When we got back to school after Shabbos, there were so, so many questions. Some girls said it looked like they thought the Rebbe was G-d. Or an avodah zarah. Or mashiach. Yes, that's what it can look like to people seeing this for the first time.
I personally still find myself scratching my head at some customs/hashkafos of chassidim. One thing that I really don't get is the different way they view davening at a kever of a tzaddik. I know this is a huge discussion and I've learned a lot about it through various in-depth shiurim, but I just couldn't find any mehalech that makes the following okay: There was an ad by a chassidish organization calling for donations to be made on Rochel Imainu's yahrtzei, because "Mama Rochel gives out gifts on her yahrtzeit."
What? Are we now subscribing physical power in this world to meisim? I don't want to even write the words out for what this sounds like, but yes, things like this can be really problematic for non-chassidim.
I mean no disrespect, just curiosity. |
So you saw a piece of bad marketing. If you said you read it in a sefer of chassidus, that would be different.
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amother
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 1:08 am
| amother DarkViolet wrote: | | So you saw a piece of bad marketing. If you said you read it in a sefer of chassidus, that would be different. |
That was just part of my comment. Even without the bad marketing the premise remains: chassidim view the concept of visiting kevarim differently than non-chassidim. I do believe this is also related to the idea of following a rebbe.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 7:22 am
| amother Waterlily wrote: |
I personally still find myself scratching my head at some customs/hashkafos of chassidim. One thing that I really don't get is the different way they view davening at a kever of a tzaddik. I know this is a huge discussion and I've learned a lot about it through various in-depth shiurim, but I just couldn't find any mehalech that makes the following okay: There was an ad by a chassidish organization calling for donations to be made on Rochel Imainu's yahrtzei, because "Mama Rochel gives out gifts on her yahrtzeit."
What? Are we now subscribing physical power in this world to meisim? I don't want to even write the words out for what this sounds like, but yes, things like this can be really problematic for non-chassidim.
I mean no disrespect, just curiosity. |
This is a big issue.
There is something to davening at kivrei tzaddikim. (Rabbi Reisman says, and have a shaichus to the tzaddik. Spend a few minutes learning his divrei Torah, know his biography. [I'll add, or hers.]) It's a makom kedushah. We can ask the tzaddik to daven for us. But we don't ascribe any power to the tzaddik to deliver him or herself. And it's become a big issue because it seems that some people do.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Jan 03 2025, 7:22 am
| amother DarkViolet wrote: | | So you saw a piece of bad marketing. If you said you read it in a sefer of chassidus, that would be different. |
I've seen it in non-marketing material too.
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