Kollel/working men rant

amother

Yarrow

Sun, Dec 15 2024, 8:46 pm

amother White wrote:

She barely works between food stamps, section 8 , heap ect so she gets to be super focused on her kids. Does not rely on handouts (happy to take hand me downs though)

Food stamps, section 8, and HEAP are all handouts lol

amother

Maple

Sun, Dec 15 2024, 8:59 pm

amother Crocus wrote:

So you don’t like entitlement…nothing to do with kollel.

As for your complaint about the man providing-my husband in kollel makes sure to go on time to everything, to get all the shmiras sedorim and even habochen (tests) checks. He does all the laundry and food shopping, packs up the kids with lunches, brings them to playgroup and picks them up. He takes care of the cars, the bills, the dishes and about a million other things.

Just gotta say this is so sweet and nice to hear! I'm sure u are working very very hard too, working and cooking and a million other things. So happy your husband is stepping up to the plate. Not so often do we get to hear these nice stories on Imamother!

amother

Coffee

Sun, Dec 15 2024, 9:22 pm

amother Clear wrote:

Just from the other side (this is not in response to OP, it's in response to some other posters):

BH BH my husband is in kollel right now. He understands that it is his responsibility to support me and our chikdren and if and when the need arises, he will go to work, no questions asked.
But right now there is no need. He is the youngest in his family, and all of his siblings are self supported (by choice-- because the kollel lifestyle was not something that any of them wanted to choose, which is great that they did what was right for them)
Baruch Hashem my in laws are very very well off. I work 6 hours a day and have flexibility to take care of our kids, but I consider us to be "supported" by my in laws-- I cover the rent with my salary and they cover everything else.
If you were to see us, you might think we look like an "entitled" kollel family. We don't wear hand me downs, though I shop only sales and aliexpress. We go out to eat occasionally. Our stroller is considered "nice".
But before you judge, realize that you just see the externals-- what you don't see is my incredibly generous and proud in laws in the background.
When my father in law saw how little we were spending during our first year married, my father in law called my husband aside and asked him to please "treat me" more. He told him to eat out a bit more often and to tell me that I should feel comfortable buying new clothes if I needed.
And then he started transferring crazy ammounts of money to our bank account each month so that we should feel like we can live "comfortably" (to me its cushy, but different standards.
I DEFINITELY don't spend lots every month, but from the outside it's clear that we are not penny pinching at all, and some might say it seems like we are entitled bc my husband is learning but we're not poor.
My father in law just called us to let us know that in the next calendar year (2025) he wants to buy us an apartment. I am so incredibly grateful and realize that this is a luxury and huge gift, and not at all a given. But I also worry. I worry what our friends will think, as noone in our stage of life owns their apartment in my community. I worry about the message that it will give my kids, since knowing my father in law, the apartment that he buys will be nothing short of gorgeous. I worry about upping the standards in my community. But the gift will be given on his terms, which means he'll need to approve the apartment and it will have to be very nice.
Yet I don't want people to look at us and say that we are not a "real" kollel couple.
My husband learns long hours and is incredibly serious about his learning.
Is being a "real" kollel couple defined as being poor?! Can we not be well off and still be serious about being a kollel family?! Asking seriously because all the judgement seriously bothers me-- we are so fortunate to be receiving support that is given so willingly. Should we turn it down because we "have to" be "poor" to be "real kollel"?
Everyone please just mind your own business and stop judging everyone else who you see.

I can relate to this. My in laws are well off and buy all of their children houses. I am incredibly grateful, it is after all incredibly beyond generous. However, I grew up with a kollel father and a SAHM & constantly resented how reliant my parents were for my pretty dysfunctional grandparent's support. I vowed to marry a working boy and work hard myself to be independent. My dh surprised me and is Kollel for a lot longer than either of us anticipated. I am very grateful for everything, and bh I have a good job that pays the bills well and with the house we really don't have to worry financially. Still a part of me wishes things were different. But at the end of the day I can't force my husband not to accept a gift from his parents or leave Kollel if there is no need.

amother

Snowflake ↓

Sun, Dec 15 2024, 10:57 pm

amother Brickred wrote:

It's not so much the bad apple. It's the putting the kollel lifestyle on a pedestal, which then disenfranchises the lower working class. They get tuition breaks more easily, have all kinds of organizations helping them etc. while the lower working class is deemed second place and has immense financial struggles. You can have a kollel family and a working family with comparable income, but the kollel family gets all kinds of help, while the working family is beaten down with no assistance. And to boot, they are considered second class.

So why are you not living a kollel lifestyle if you’re making it seem that the working class has it so much harder??

amother

↑ Snowflake

Sun, Dec 15 2024, 11:00 pm

amother Wandflower wrote:

Yup there are plenty of us working kollel wives that with our salaries put our families in the solid middle class.

This!!! Couldn’t agree more!

amother

Snapdragon

Yesterday at 9:18 am

I don't think entitlement is due to a Kollel lifestyle.
Its's often a result of parents enabling their children.
It can happen to anyone.
It's ugly behaviour eitherway

amother

Birch

Yesterday at 12:41 pm

amother Maple wrote:

You might not hear it much on this site, but in my circles that's the norm amongst kollel families, my husband included. (And he kept that help up now that he is working full time as a Rebbe.)

amother

Smokey

Yesterday at 12:49 pm

Myt husband is the same, does all the extra programs and also tutors on the side.

I work 9-2. He makes more than me with all his hustling.

amother

↑ Scarlet ↓

Yesterday at 1:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

Maybe it’s just something I see in the circles I’m in. I don’t know.
I’m really not trying to judge but when I see this family and other people I know where the wife is incredibly overwhelmed, trying to juggle everything while their husband wants to stay in learning it makes me mad. When they feel entitled to get get get it rush me the wrong way. I know everyone’s not like this, this is just what I see around me and I don’t think I’m the only one. I’m not saying you have to be poor just cuz ur kollel but it’s a different thing to expect and milk out of other ppl especially when they’re not super wealthy
Yeah I should mind my own business, I’m just venting.

Maybe it's in your circles. I dunno. It's not what I see.
The kollel families I know are all hardworking with lower standards in gashmius, and don't "milk" out of other people.

And as for the bolded, you need to realize that you know nothing about their dynamics. What makes you think he feels entitled?? Maybe the husband is more than willing to go to work and the wife really wants him to stay in learning. I know many couples where the wife wants it even more than the dh.

Also, kollel life is a joint decision between husband and wife. They are working together to make this lifestyle work if they both chose it. That means husband helping the wife so she's not too overwhelmed. But often both parents are busy and working hard and both overwhelmed. Sometimes that's just part of the stage of kids etc.
And as soon as a wife says she is done and doesn't want to be the sole breadwinner, the husband should be going to work.

amother

↑ Scarlet ↓

Yesterday at 1:11 pm

amother Honeydew wrote:

To be honest I think it's an aveira to not support your wife. If I find someone else to carry my baby for me its against halacha. But if my husband skips working it's not?
How's that make sense in your head cause In mine it's not working.
Also the guy SIGNED that hes supporting his wife it's HIS responsibility to do so.

Well, good thing you're not a posek. Because you clearly wouldn't be qualified to decide what's an aveira.

Yes the guy signed, but if the wife is WILLING and INTERESTED in working so that her husband can learn and their home and lives are more imbued with torah, then that's what they choose and it's completely permissible.

Of course the second she says she doesn't want to do it anymore, he is fully obligated to go to work.

You're not in the system, so clearly you don't get it. And you can't fathom why women would choose this lifestyle. You don't have to get it. But maybe try to realize tht you don't get it.

amother

↑ Scarlet ↓

Yesterday at 1:12 pm

amother Snow wrote:

Hmmm…there are a lot more in kollel then medical research, how many are really needed to serve the klal?

I can't wrap my mind around your question

amother

↑ Scarlet

Yesterday at 1:22 pm

amother Hibiscus wrote:

Why do you have to work like crazy? That's unfair. It's the mans role to work, Adam's curse! Do you really think it's worth your mental and physical health? Not to mention being present for your children.

If it's compromising your mental and physical health and your ability to be present for your kids, then it's not for you.

Those who are in the system are still in it because it's working for them and their families.
They are willing to work hard for a higher goal.
And they can make it work without compromising their health or being present with their children.

amother

Celeste ↓

Yesterday at 1:33 pm

amother White wrote:

Can you ignore them and focus on the real kollel families. My sister lives in a small apartment, rusty cars, hand me downs ect... She barely works between food stamps, section 8 , heap ect so she gets to be super focused on her kids. Does not rely on handouts (happy to take hand me downs though) none of her hard working siblings resent her. We actually really admire her commitment to her lifestyle and I will say most of us can not live like that despite what were told in school/seminary

So your sister doesn't work so she can be with her kids but takes advantage of all the tax paying families who do work? Interesting.

amother

↑ White ↓

Yesterday at 1:39 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

So your sister doesn't work so she can be with her kids but takes advantage of all the tax paying families who do work? Interesting.

It would go to all the local low class people anyways. Your not paying more taxes for her.. Its already in the govt budget.

amother

↑ Geranium ↓

Yesterday at 1:42 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

So your sister doesn't work so she can be with her kids but takes advantage of all the tax paying families who do work? Interesting.

You're going to be paying taxes regardless. Shouldn't you be happy if it goes to a fellow Jew, especially one who is spending his day delving into our holy Torah? Do you have this amount of vitriol towards non kollel people, on programs or welfare?

amother

↑ Celeste ↓

Yesterday at 1:44 pm

amother Moonstone wrote:

I met a couple like that and was shocked. The man was around 40 years old and said he expected his in laws to pay for a new car since his parents had paid for the last one. And then he said " I am not worried, I davened for a new car on Rosh Hashana, and Hashem always provides!" I was floored.
There are also many wonderful sweet and humble Kollel families though.

What bothers me the most is that we were told in sem that working boys aren't good boys. Only kollel boys are good. Ans this was a BT sem!!! I honestly believed that working boys were bad people. It's sick to put sth like that into ppls heads.. especially Baal teshuvas who don't know many frum ppl and can't find out if that's even true at all!!!!

I am a BT and this is shocking. My sem really encouraged us to marry shtark working guys who would work and learn. Learner earner. That was my goal and that's what I got bh. My husband learned full time for a year when we got married and then by year 2.5 started working full time. He always makes time to learn and has made many siyums in the 10 years we have been married. I feel extremely blessed!

amother

Dustypink

Yesterday at 1:52 pm

amother Birch wrote:

You might not hear it much on this site, but in my circles that's the norm amongst kollel families, my husband included. (And he kept that help up now that he is working full time as a Rebbe.)

My husband is the same way bh. He is in kollel and helps me a ton especially after work when I’m tired. Kollel men (really any men) that were raised the right way and have good middot know how to appreciate their wives sacrifices for their learning, and appreciate whatever support they get. They are not entitled.

miami85 ↓

Yesterday at 1:57 pm

The simple answer is not everyone is cut out for the kollel lifestyle. But it doesn't change the fact that learning Torah full-time is a beautiful way to start out married life, but perhaps the culture needs to change in how long the kollel stint is, and what is the plan for after kollel. My husband's kollel had a finite term and now he works full-time. I loved our kollel years, it was hard, it was stressful, but the best years of my life in many ways.

↑ Brit in Israel

Yesterday at 2:28 pm

miami85 wrote:

For some it might have to end at some point but for those who are happy to do it long term, why cut it short if they are managing financially and both spouses are happy to continue?

↑ miami85

Yesterday at 3:05 pm

Brit in Israel wrote:

For some it might have to end at some point but for those who are happy to do it long term, why cut it short if they are managing financially and both spouses are happy to continue?

Because it takes time for salaries to catch up with family size. I mean if a woman is pulling in $200K then kol hakavod and stay in kollel as long as he wants, but if she's making $70K with 6 kids, then the reality is there might be 6 kids in school simultaneously and then food, housing, clothes increase exponentially you need to plan for the days when you'll be needing 2 incomes and the husband should be prepared to be making $60k-$80K at some point and you don't necessarily get that when you are first working.