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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
amother
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 Today at 4:02 pm
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We are non payers. We've been struggling for the past 13 years. We don't go on luxury vacations, have expensive cars or do takeout. The clothes my kids have on are worn out and too small on them. We both work but somehow we are never making it. It's cat and mouse every month. Summer? We keep the kids home because we can't afford camp.....
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amother
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Today at 4:10 pm
I agree but with the caveat that both kollel and SAHM are treated equally. Imo, a woman who stays at home so she can better mother her kids, is equally fulfilling her tafkid just like a man does with his learning.
I agree with you that whether a man chooses kollel or a woman chooses to be a SAHM, they shouldnt get any special considerations to not pay tuition. But if for whatever reasons a kollel man gets special considerations then so too should a SAHM, as both are comparable.
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kosherkween
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Today at 4:11 pm
| amother Cognac wrote: | | We are non payers. We've been struggling for the past 13 years. We don't go on luxury vacations, have expensive cars or do takeout. The clothes my kids have on are worn out and too small on them. We both work but somehow we are never making it. It's cat and mouse every month. Summer? We keep the kids home because we can't afford camp..... |
That's different than ppl who disregard tuition for no reason.
But it still doesnt exempt you. I'm not trying to hurt you, but what should the school do if, say, 50% or more of their parents can't afford. Is it their responsibility to fundraise for 50% tuition? If you answer yes, explain why it's on them and not on you to fundraise.
Explain why you demand school breaks or not paying at all, and u wouldn't do it in the grocery, the butcher, the uniform store, the bridal shop, the shadchan, the cleaners, the shoe repair, the hardware store, plumber, I cud go on. Even if u do ask for discount, u don't full stop not pay.
Why is tuition seen as optional?
Why is it the first thing on the list that gets cut?
Will u also not pay the badchan at the wedding? Oh for wedding u have ppl raising money? Ok so have ppl raise money for tuition!
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amother
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Today at 4:34 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | That's different than ppl who disregard tuition for no reason.
But it still doesnt exempt you. I'm not trying to hurt you, but what should the school do if, say, 50% or more of their parents can't afford. Is it their responsibility to fundraise for 50% tuition? If you answer yes, explain why it's on them and not on you to fundraise.
Explain why you demand school breaks or not paying at all, and u wouldn't do it in the grocery, the butcher, the uniform store, the bridal shop, the shadchan, the cleaners, the shoe repair, the hardware store, plumber, I cud go on. Even if u do ask for discount, u don't full stop not pay.
Why is tuition seen as optional?
Why is it the first thing on the list that gets cut?
Will u also not pay the badchan at the wedding? Oh for wedding u have ppl raising money? Ok so have ppl raise money for tuition! |
Tuition is overwhelming - it's a second mortgage. If one prioritizes tuition, then they may not have food on the table or a home to live in. It's the sheer large numbers that push it to the wayside in desperate times.
Also, you can't compare it to the grocery store. You have options there. If one has $25 left in their budget, they will likely choose the cheapest items to maximize the budget. You don't get a monthly bill that you must pay. You take your budget and somehow make it work. But you can't do that with tuition. You cant tell the school that this month I am only paying $100. Your balance keeps growing until the numbers are so large, that the pennies you do scrape together don't even make a dent in it. So see point #1.
Regarding your other mentioned costs:
Plumber - We fix all the small stuff ourselves so that we don't call a plumber. The big stuff? It's a massive crisis.
Shoe repair - it's cheaper to repair than buy new shoes.
Hardware store - haven't been in there for a very long while.
Badchan, shadchan, bridal shop - hachnosses kallah and tzedakah.
I don't think many posters can even fathom what it means to not be able to afford tuition. And I don't understand those questions about buying food. If it's literally a choice between food on the table or tuition, do you really expect those folks to pay tuition?
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amother
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Today at 4:37 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | That's different than ppl who disregard tuition for no reason.
But it still doesnt exempt you. I'm not trying to hurt you, but what should the school do if, say, 50% or more of their parents can't afford. Is it their responsibility to fundraise for 50% tuition? If you answer yes, explain why it's on them and not on you to fundraise.
Explain why you demand school breaks or not paying at all, and u wouldn't do it in the grocery, the butcher, the uniform store, the bridal shop, the shadchan, the cleaners, the shoe repair, the hardware store, plumber, I cud go on. Even if u do ask for discount, u don't full stop not pay.
Why is tuition seen as optional?
Why is it the first thing on the list that gets cut?
Will u also not pay the badchan at the wedding? Oh for wedding u have ppl raising money? Ok so have ppl raise money for tuition! |
Re fundraising. How does that work when the average person is not affording tuition? If my siblings are equally struggling, and my parents are still paying off their debts from tuition/wedding expenses, and friends are in the same boat, whom can we turn to for funds?
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amother
Tiffanyblue
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Today at 4:39 pm
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You can have a husband in kollel bringing in 30 to 40k. And the wife working, bringing in 50 to 60k
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amother
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Today at 4:54 pm
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We do the best we can, that's all I can say. I know we try to do our part, but it doesn't work. I look like a frump because I can't afford to get clothes for myself because all I can think of is my kids needs first.
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kosherkween
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Today at 5:02 pm
| amother Razzmatazz wrote: | Tuition is overwhelming - it's a second mortgage. If one prioritizes tuition, then they may not have food on the table or a home to live in. It's the sheer large numbers that push it to the wayside in desperate times.
Also, you can't compare it to the grocery store. You have options there. If one has $25 left in their budget, they will likely choose the cheapest items to maximize the budget. You don't get a monthly bill that you must pay. You take your budget and somehow make it work. But you can't do that with tuition. You cant tell the school that this month I am only paying $100. Your balance keeps growing until the numbers are so large, that the pennies you do scrape together don't even make a dent in it. So see point #1.
Regarding your other mentioned costs:
Plumber - We fix all the small stuff ourselves so that we don't call a plumber. The big stuff? It's a massive crisis.
Shoe repair - it's cheaper to repair than buy new shoes.
Hardware store - haven't been in there for a very long while.
Badchan, shadchan, bridal shop - hachnosses kallah and tzedakah.
I don't think many posters can even fathom what it means to not be able to afford tuition. And I don't understand those questions about buying food. If it's literally a choice between food on the table or tuition, do you really expect those folks to pay tuition? |
Quick question. Should your neighbor be required to pay your rent? Even if your absolutely broke?
If not, how is it ok that someone else is responsible for your child's education costs? It's an actual human being that now has to deal with the hole of ure missing payment. Who is supposed to cover that?
If you can't afford yom tov, you pick up a phone to tomcha shabbas, despite the pain of being on receiving end. Quick question, did you call any org or other for ure tuition?
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amother
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Today at 5:08 pm
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As a parent in a Lakewood school that pays full tuition for all my kids despite it being right sometimes, I have an additional concern. What are the schools doing to keep their expenses down? We got in the mail three invitations to a schools dinner, and each invitation was a piece of art on high end fancy paper with all kinds of bells and whistles. The school is housed in an absolutely beautiful building of marble and whatnot. I’m so grateful my child has a beautiful place to spend their day but perhaps something a little simpler would allow for a reduced tuition and more money actually going to the teachers! The colored school newsletter must cost as much as a book to print every week… high quality paper in full color. Etc. all the extra curricular is sponsored by parents, every other extra we are expected to pay for. Are all the extras necessary? anyone else feel this way?
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octopus
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Today at 5:13 pm
| giftedmom wrote: | Then everyone hates on the schools who get millions in govt funding through not the most honest ways but then the parents have cheaper tuition and don’t get kicked out for not paying.
You can’t have it all ways. You don’t expect your grocery to give you food for free even though you’re hungry and you don’t have money. A school, like any other business or institution, cannot function without money. It has to come from somewhere. |
The problem is, should a school operate like a business or like a not for profit organization? You can't have it both ways .
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amother
Bergamot
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Today at 5:17 pm
| amother Quince wrote: | | As a parent in a Lakewood school that pays full tuition for all my kids despite it being right sometimes, I have an additional concern. What are the schools doing to keep their expenses down? We got in the mail three invitations to a schools dinner, and each invitation was a piece of art on high end fancy paper with all kinds of bells and whistles. The school is housed in an absolutely beautiful building of marble and whatnot. I’m so grateful my child has a beautiful place to spend their day but perhaps something a little simpler would allow for a reduced tuition and more money actually going to the teachers! The colored school newsletter must cost as much as a book to print every week… high quality paper in full color. Etc. all the extra curricular is sponsored by parents, every other extra we are expected to pay for. Are all the extras necessary? anyone else feel this way? |
This!! I just had a conversation with a parent about this topic this morning. My kids school had a brunch as fundraiser for the scholarship fund. It was very nice and very low key. Think out of town bris style. Nothing fancy, just regular brunch food from a local establishment and plenty of room to sit. Someone commented to me that after everyone in the room donated generously to the scholarship fund, they would have expected a nicer, fancier event. I replied to the contrary- I would be quite disheartened to show up to such an event and see that the school spends money on frills. The fact that it was even a conversation indicates that there are those who may disagree, but I completely agree with your point about schools being able to cut back their spending. You can have a nice, quality, functional education experience without being extra.
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kosherkween
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Today at 5:18 pm
| amother Razzmatazz wrote: | | Re fundraising. How does that work when the average person is not affording tuition? If my siblings are equally struggling, and my parents are still paying off their debts from tuition/wedding expenses, and friends are in the same boat, whom can we turn to for funds? |
Before I answer that, let me just say that their is a prevailing attitude here about admins and schools that I want to address.
A school is not a faceless company, with unlimited funds. A school is not the federal government, demanding you pay your money in taxes.
A school is a group of people, actual people, sometimes also struggling to make ends meet. When u talk to your school, your talking to a live human being, who has a unimaginable burden to carry every single month. This human cannot ignore the rent bills, the payroll, the bussing costs or any other of the gargantuan expenses a school has.
Every student costs the school xx amount of money, and that number is full tuition.
When you don't pay your full tuition, someone else will have to pay it!!!!
Do you understand that?
And this is when u pay every month, just not full tuition.
School must understand the struggle and must accept discounts, unlike every other goods and service industry. Fine.
But not to pay at all? The heck? What is this admin supposed to do, knock from door to door for ure missing money? How shud he pay the broken down bus? How should he cover the 6th grade hebrew teacher? Ure money is not extra, it's built into the fiscal budget!!!!!!!
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amother
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Today at 5:18 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | Quick question. Should your neighbor be required to pay your rent? Even if your absolutely broke?
If not, how is it ok that someone else is responsible for your child's education costs? It's an actual human being that now has to deal with the hole of ure missing payment. Who is supposed to cover that?
If you can't afford yom tov, you pick up a phone to tomcha shabbas, despite the pain of being on receiving end. Quick question, did you call any org or other for ure tuition? |
Is this question real? Don't you know that there is no organization that pays for tuition? No Tomchei Tuition.
And yes, of course neighbors should help out a neighbor who.is struggling. Where else should their maaser money go? Who else should they help instead?
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amother
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Today at 5:21 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | Quick question. Should your neighbor be required to pay your rent? Even if your absolutely broke?
If not, how is it ok that someone else is responsible for your child's education costs? It's an actual human being that now has to deal with the hole of ure missing payment. Who is supposed to cover that?
If you can't afford yom tov, you pick up a phone to tomcha shabbas, despite the pain of being on receiving end. Quick question, did you call any org or other for ure tuition? |
That's the million dollar question. In a community where public schools are not an option, but yet schooling is a necessity for a child, what options are available for the poor folks?
If the poor folks are a small number, then fundraising and tzedakah are sensible solutions. But when the poor folks are the majority since tuition is so high, then the standard solutions won't work.
And pressuring parents who don't have the money makes no sense. You can't squeeze water from a rock, no matter how badly you want to.
Something is very wrong in the picture where private schools are mandatory but yet the costs and lifestyle are so high that the average person cant make it. That's what is needed to be fixed. The poor person struggling to put food on the table is not doing anything wrong. It's our unsustainable system that we have collectively set up that us wronging us all. Guilting the victims is a shameful way to go about it. We need the courage to admit that we have many ills in our society and we need the strength to make those changes.
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amother
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Today at 5:23 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | Before I answer that, let me just say that their is a prevailing attitude here about admins and schools that I want to address.
A school is not a faceless company, with unlimited funds. A school is not the federal government, demanding you pay your money in taxes.
A school is a group of people, actual people, sometimes also struggling to make ends meet. When u talk to your school, your talking to a live human being, who has a unimaginable burden to carry every single month. This human cannot ignore the rent bills, the payroll, the bussing costs or any other of the gargantuan expenses a school has.
Every student costs the school xx amount of money, and that number is full tuition.
When you don't pay your full tuition, someone else will have to pay it!!!!
Do you understand that?
And this is when u pay every month, just not full tuition.
School must understand the struggle and must accept discounts, unlike every other goods and service industry. Fine.
But not to pay at all? The heck? What is this admin supposed to do, knock from door to door for ure missing money? How shud he pay the broken down bus? How should he cover the 6th grade hebrew teacher? Ure money is not extra, it's built into the fiscal budget!!!!!!! |
Calm down! Most parents pay tuition and there are many schools who will expel if the parents don't pay tuition.
Why are you so angry? How does this affect you personally????
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amother
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Today at 5:23 pm
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The cost of everything went up, except peoples salaries. Most sane people are already cutting back where they can. I wish all the property taxes we pay, go to our own childrens education.
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amother
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Today at 5:27 pm
| amother Razzmatazz wrote: | That's the million dollar question. In a community where public schools are not an option, but yet schooling is a necessity for a child, what options are available for the poor folks?
If the poor folks are a small number, then fundraising and tzedakah are sensible solutions. But when the poor folks are the majority since tuition is so high, then the standard solutions won't work.
And pressuring parents who don't have the money makes no sense. You can't squeeze water from a rock, no matter how badly you want to.
Something is very wrong in the picture where private schools are mandatory but yet the costs and lifestyle are so high that the average person cant make it. That's what is needed to be fixed. The poor person struggling to put food on the table is not doing anything wrong. It's our unsustainable system that we have collectively set up that us wronging us all. Guilting the victims is a shameful way to go about it. We need the courage to admit that we have many ills in our society and we need the strength to make those changes. |
Ok but sometimes people are struggling not because of the system but because frum life is so expensive even with just the basics
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amother
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Today at 5:36 pm
| kosherkween wrote: | Before I answer that, let me just say that their is a prevailing attitude here about admins and schools that I want to address.
A school is not a faceless company, with unlimited funds. A school is not the federal government, demanding you pay your money in taxes.
A school is a group of people, actual people, sometimes also struggling to make ends meet. When u talk to your school, your talking to a live human being, who has a unimaginable burden to carry every single month. This human cannot ignore the rent bills, the payroll, the bussing costs or any other of the gargantuan expenses a school has.
Every student costs the school xx amount of money, and that number is full tuition.
When you don't pay your full tuition, someone else will have to pay it!!!!
Do you understand that?
And this is when u pay every month, just not full tuition.
School must understand the struggle and must accept discounts, unlike every other goods and service industry. Fine.
But not to pay at all? The heck? What is this admin supposed to do, knock from door to door for ure missing money? How shud he pay the broken down bus? How should he cover the 6th grade hebrew teacher? Ure money is not extra, it's built into the fiscal budget!!!!!!! |
But then why promote and teach an unsustainable lifestyle?! The schools (and community) is the victim of its own teachings.
- We marry off the young kids with no financial stability. We tell them to figure it out later.
- We heavily promote the kollel lifestyle, leading to pushing parnossoh down the road.
- We downplay higher education, which would help a good many.
- We encourage the newlyweds to start a family, well before their finances are stable.
- We encourage large families, and telling families not to consider finances for family planning.
- We push our girls to attend costly seminaries and send the boys to costly Israeli yeshivas
- We introduce costly extra-curricular activities into the school environment.
- The average simcha is a bank breaking event.
- We set expectation that chosson/kallah gifts are in the $20-30k range.
- The cost of kosher food and Jewish items have skyrocketed.
- We cram into locations instead of moving out, thereby raising home prices beyond imagination
Etc.....
And then what? Expect the entire community to be wealthy? To earn sufficient funds within this crazy setup? To rely on miracles on a large scale? How on earth does this even begin to make sense.
This setup is largely a product of the educational system. It doesn't work, no matter how nicely they play it. No matter how they attempt to tie it together with spirituality.
Unfortunately, the chickens have come home to roost. Inflation has brought closer the inevitable that was going to happen regardless. You can't create an unsustainable system and expect it to last endlessly. It works for a while as you manipulate funds and people to make it work, but eventually there isn't enough funds and people left to make it work.
So here we are. And the one thing that you should not to is blame the little people for the problems created by those in leadership positions.
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amother
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Today at 5:38 pm
| amother Canary wrote: | | Ok but sometimes people are struggling not because of the system but because frum life is so expensive even with just the basics |
It is the system that has made frum life so expensive. While frum life will always be more expensive than the average community, the current level is way beyond what it should be.
It is our very system that is feeding the majority of the current problems.
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amother
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Today at 5:38 pm
| amother Bergamot wrote: | | This!! I just had a conversation with a parent about this topic this morning. My kids school had a brunch as fundraiser for the scholarship fund. It was very nice and very low key. Think out of town bris style. Nothing fancy, just regular brunch food from a local establishment and plenty of room to sit. Someone commented to me that after everyone in the room donated generously to the scholarship fund, they would have expected a nicer, fancier event. I replied to the contrary- I would be quite disheartened to show up to such an event and see that the school spends money on frills. The fact that it was even a conversation indicates that there are those who may disagree, but I completely agree with your point about schools being able to cut back their spending. You can have a nice, quality, functional education experience without being extra. |
On this topic I’ll add about all extras the schools demand of parents, specifically in the girls high schools. School shabbos is over $200, the girls have to be in play and pay for their own costumes, have to stay late for a month before the play with no transportation home (we live a half hour away from the school and neither myself or my husband can pick our daughter up at 545) so often Uber her home and even with other girls splitting it, it adds up quickly… and then as a mom I have to purchase a ticket to see the play… One of my elementary schools makes a dinner every year that is so over the top it’s dizzying. The decor, the food, the centerpieces the band etc. That alone must be dozens and dozens of tuitions. It’s just frustrating to me that I struggle to pay tuition but I do and to see my money so not valued. And in these same schools they complain they can’t cover payroll… But we’re choking, living so frugally, why can’t the school adapt a similar mindset?! Why does every assembly have to have a custom backdrop and lighting on par with a broadway show? Where have our priorities gone? Again, this is in mainstream Lakewood schools…
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