Hashkafa vs Hashgafa

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Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:21 pm

Inspired by a comment on another thread where someone spelled the word "hashgafa" and someone else objected.
Etymologically, "hashkafah" is more accurate because it reflects the spelling of the word in Hebrew (השקפה).
But, phonetically speaking, many (most?) people (even if you are thinking "hashkafah") end up saying a word that sounds like "hashgafa" because certain sounds often don't get emphasized when they come after other sounds in a word.

So, the two spellings could represent two philosophies of transliteration. What is our goal when transliterating a word? Is it to mimic the spelling in the original language, or to recreate the sounds of the spoken word in the new alphabet?

Also, can anyone think of other words that have a "k" in the middle following other consonants (especially the "sh" sound) where the "k" ends up being pronounced as a "g"?

mommy#1

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:27 pm

The opposite though, where hashgacha is how it’s spelled in Hebrew but many pronounce it hashkacha

(I spell it how it’s spelled in Hebrew so I write hashkafa. I pronounce it with the kuf sound though)

simcha2

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:28 pm

Could it be that people saying hashgafa, just don't know the actual word and are conflating it with hahgacha.

missknowitall ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:30 pm

I think it’s people not knowing the Hebrew word and making a mistake.

yiddishmom

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:35 pm

Idk, I think your premise is incorrect.

I've never heard sound like hashgafa. It always has the K sound.

iyar

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:35 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

The two spellings don’t represent two philosophies of anything. One of the spellings represents the actual word. The other spelling represents a mistake in spelling, pronunciation or both. Replacing a k sound with a hard g is a mistake. I’m not aware of a language where a k sound is replaced with g.

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:40 pm

iyar wrote:

The argument is that there is no "correct" spelling of השקפה in English, because it is not an English word.
I think whether you're actually fully pronouncing the "k" sound might depend on whether you're putting the emphasis on the last syllable (as an Israeli would) or second-to-last. "K" is much lower down in the throat, and I don't think everyone is actually enunciating it. Just for fun, you can try saying "hashkafa" and "hashgafa" a few times in a row and listen to hear if they sound distinctly different.

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:44 pm

Okay, I thought of one.
Say "scale" out loud. Then say "sgale" out loud. When I do it, it sounds the same.

↑ missknowitall ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:46 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Okay, I thought of one.
Say "scale" out loud. Then say "sgale" out loud. When I do it, it sounds the same.

But if someone spelled it sgale we would all correct her because it’s not acceptable to spell it that way. We don’t spell based on how we think it sounds, when we write Hebrew words in English we substitute the letter that corresponds. So kuf is k always, it’s never g.

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:49 pm

missknowitall wrote:

It would be incorrect to spell it "sgale" in English, but would it be incorrect to transliterate it as "סגייל" into Hebrew? Think about how words travel through languages. Their spellings in the new languages don't necessarily reflect their etymology in the original language.

effess ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:49 pm

Fleishig -pronunciation
Fleishik-actual Yiddish word

↑ missknowitall

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:51 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Yeah c does not become gimmel so that would be wrong. Everyone I know who spelled it g in real life had never seen the Hebrew word and had no idea they were saying it wrong. It’s always a mistake.

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:52 pm

effess wrote:

Fleishig -pronunciation
Fleishik-actual Yiddish word

An interesting example, because in German, "ig" is the ending used to turn a word into an adjective.

↑ effess ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:54 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

An interesting example, because in German, "ig" is the ending used to turn a word into an adjective.

Interesting!
So they’re both correct!
One correct in Yiddish and one correct in German

b.chadash ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:56 pm

The name Rivka is pronounced Rifka.
Some people spell it with an F, even though it the Hebrew is with a veis.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 10:58 pm

I don't agree with the example of hashkafa vs hashgafa. I think people say the hard k in hashkafa.

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 11:02 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I don't agree with the example of hashkafa vs hashgafa. I think people say the hard k in hashkafa.

Maybe I just said it out loud too many times for it to sound like a word to me anymore Wink

Try "scale" though. I think the phenomenon is more pronounced there because we pronounce "s" closer to the front of the mouth than "sh," so it's harder to fully vocalize the hard "c" sound.

mybusyima

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 11:07 pm

b.chadash wrote:

The name Rivka is pronounced Rifka.
Some people spell it with an F, even though it the Hebrew is with a veis.

Omg, huge pet peeve of mine!!! When I see it spelled with an f, I cringe and just think that person doesn't know any better...

↑ Wolfsbane ↓

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 11:10 pm

missknowitall wrote:

Yeah c does not become gimmel so that would be wrong. Everyone I know who spelled it g in real life had never seen the Hebrew word and had no idea they were saying it wrong. It’s always a mistake.

I think another way to ask the question isn't whether or not "c" becomes "gimmel"--because once we are dealing with Hebrew, the letter "c" does not exist--but whether the sound made when we vocalize the word "scale" can be represented by the letter "gimmel."

Let's say we use, as our example, a word whose pronunciation does not reflect its English spelling. We wouldn't say the correct way to transliterate "laugh" is "לאגה" because it matches the English spelling. We would transliterate it as "לאף."

↑ b.chadash

Sun, Nov 03 2024, 11:12 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Maybe I just said it out loud too many times for it to sound like a word to me anymore Wink

Try "scale" though. I think the phenomenon is more pronounced there because we pronounce "s" closer to the front of the mouth than "sh," so it's harder to fully vocalize the hard "c" sound.

Ok but that wasn't your point.
Your point was that some words are pronounced differently than how they are spelled in Hebrew.

There are many words in English that sound different than how they are spelled. I sometimes hear people say sigsdy instead of Sixty. Or sevendy.
Or baground instead of background.

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