Why do we need to daven so much, Hashem always forgives us

amother

↑ Amaryllis ↓

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 9:22 pm

amother Lotus wrote:

Because there are different levels of forgiveness and different levels of Teshuva.

We daven the Hashem count whatever Teshuva we managed to do for all it's worth. And grant us as much forgiveness as possible for the Teshuvah we did.

A loving father forgives... But that doesn't mean that he won't ever give consequences to his children. Especially if he sees the children keep doing the things he's trying to teach them not to do.

I'm just trying to be practical. Do we see hashem giving consequences more so to people that deserve it? Do we see hashem giving consequences less so to the people that don't?

Can we really understand teshuvah in a way we can see it? If we look at a sample of 10,000 righteous jews that likely did teshuvah last year and compare them to 10,000 jews who are unaffiliated and didn't do teshuvah last year.....do we see a difference in outcomes? Can we see hashem accepts teshuvah or is it all theoretical and beyond our comprehension? Is there any way (literally anything) where we can apply or see it in real life?

amother

↑ Valerian

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 9:45 pm

amother Amaryllis wrote:

Pretty sure it's all theoretical, beyond our comprehension, with no way of seeing it in real life. Whatever we see in real life and attribute to Hashem is just our limited thinking

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 9:54 pm

amother Amaryllis wrote:

If we genuinely believe in Olam Habah, not just as a theory but as a reality, it makes sense that we wouldn’t expect to see the full impact of Teshuva, Tefillah, and Tzedaka solely in this world. Hashem’s ultimate goal is for us to reach our highest potential in the eternal world, so everything is being orchestrated with that in mind. Expecting the results to show up here, in this limited and temporary world, without considering the much greater, everlasting one would actually be strange. The purpose of this life is to prepare us for that eternal reward, so it wouldn’t make sense for everything to be measured and seen purely through the lens of this world. This world is just part of the process; the real outcome is in Olam Habah.

amother

↑ Lime

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 9:59 pm

It’s like when I was sitting shiva, and people tried to make sense of what happened. The truth is, it doesn’t make sense—at least not in a way that we can understand here. But why should it?

We are each placed in this world to work within the darkness, to bring holiness into that darkness through our Torah and Mitzvos. This effort is what makes our reward in the next world even more meaningful—because it’s earned through our struggles and actions here. Given that, and considering that this world is barely a blip compared to eternity, why would I expect to clearly see how my actions have changed this world? Our actions might have effects we can’t fully grasp now, but the ultimate impact is reserved for the next world, where it truly matters.

amother

DarkGray

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 10:03 pm

Tefilla is meant to strengthen that connection we have with Hashem. It's for us, not for Him. We become closer to Him, better people, helps us do teshuva, which literally means come closer to Him. It nurtures our spirituality and helps us remember where we come from and where we're going to. Hashem wants our closeness (like every parent with their child) and sometimes tefilla is the trigger that makes Him give us things we want.

CPenzias

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 10:04 pm

The way I see it is that Hashem doesn't need our tfillos. Us davening is for us. It's to reflect and cleanse our souls. (Why should a 12 year old care? ) my 11 year old stayed with me for quite awhile in shul bh. I let her bring a book and she read for a bit too. She davened when she felt like it. I didn't force her.
I was so sad at the end of yom kippur. I usually feel like a load was lifted and this year I didn't. I cried during the shofar (we have an amazing baal tokea. I cried for moshiach. We really need moshiach. People were asking me if I was ok, that's how sad I looked 😔. It's cleansing.

amother

Powderblue

Sat, Oct 12 2024, 10:12 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Are you serious ? You think everyone who died last year it was because Hashem didn’t forgive them ? So all the little children that died last year it was because Hashem didn’t forgive their sins ??

That could be but I do not view Hashem’s actions this way at all - and it is NOT for us to know and/or judge anyone for their deaths since we are not Hashem.
Take the Meron tragedy- they were all pure individuals. Sometimes people are taken just as a Korban and sometimes just for rectifying the original tikun (Kabbalah)
We don’t know Hashem’s actions. We are tiny compared to Him. How could we dare judge another individual that he was not found “forgiven”?? Smh

ora_43 ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 1:25 am

amother Amaryllis wrote:

Right. But the words in davening on RH and YK say that teshuva, tefilah, and tzedakah will tear up the bad decree.

Is there any way to apply this so that it has meaning or value?

To me it doesn't seem so. It seems we have to come on to explanations such as....hashem really knows what's best for us so perhaps when he's making the people who did these 3 things die, it's BECAUSE they did these 3 things and hashem in his wisdom knew that it's best for them to suffer and die.

It seems like you were saying, "maybe Hashem doesn't always forgive,"

and now you're saying, "there's no way to tell if Hashem forgives or not just by looking."

Am I understanding you right?

(I think the question of whether we can tell if someone was forgiven by looking at their life is different from OP's dd's question. Just FTR.)

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 1:36 am

amother OP wrote:

In her eyes, as a 12 yr old she feels he forgives. She knows Hashem is our compassionate father and assumes in her emuna pshuta the He forgives us all.
We can't know why things happen, what is a punishment or a nisayon..

I think this is part of the confusion.

There's no promise that Hashem forgives sins without teshuva. Imagine someone who goes around robbing poor elderly people and has zero regrets and is planning to do it again, would it make sense for them to get full forgiveness? have the slate wiped clean? The idea of forgiveness without regret makes sense when applied to the 'sins' of mostly-innocent children, but not writ large.

OTOH,
I also think your dd is right that it doesn't matter how much we daven. It is important to daven - to say out loud that we have sinned, and are asking forgiveness - both as part of the process (asking forgiveness of the wronged party is the right thing to do, even if the wronged party is Hashem who knows our thoughts) and to inspire ourselves to teshuva. But it's not like someone who managed all 5 prayers in shul on YK is necessarily more forgiven than someone who says a single heartfelt prayer for forgiveness.

(there is an inyan of (1) praying for forgiveness at the end of YK, because what if we sinned during the day, (2) prayer for the entire community not just ourselves. IIRC. But still, quantity of prayer only matters so much.)

PinkFridge ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 4:21 am

amother Lime wrote:

No, we should see it in this world. But with the removal of nevuah, we don't see life as b/w as we used to.

amother

Azalea

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 4:55 am

amother Lime wrote:

This is the best answer.

amother

Moccasin

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 5:42 am

We have to do teshuva always. We aren’t forgiven without it. Hashem always loves us he doesn’t automatically forgive, we have a whole teshuva process for a reason. I think it’s wrong to teach this incorrectly to kids. She shouldn’t be lied to and told we are just always forgiven. We are very much responsible for our actions and required to do teshuva.

amother

↑ Amaryllis ↓

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 8:59 am

ora_43 wrote:

I'm trying to process the entire idea of communicating with hashem thru davening. I always believed that we can talk and communicate with hashem in specific ways. If things are bothering us- tell hashem. If we need something- tell hashem.

It's difficult coming to terms with the idea that this is not a hard reality but an abstract concept that is more theoretical. I wonder whether the pregnant women who davened for a healthy birth had fewer misses than women who didn't daven a word on YK or even think about hashem for a second.

I'm wondering whether the people who begged hashem for health all RH and YK actually do better than those who didn't bother asking at all.

And I know it's not black and white. I'm wondering (concerned) if there's even the slightest difference.

amother

↑ Amaryllis

Sun, Oct 13 2024, 9:02 am

amother Lime wrote:

I'm not referring to the full impact of teshuvah. Do we see any indication in this world that teshuvah helps at all?

Will the people that did teshuvah get cancer less? If not then what does this all really mean on a practical level?