Does my 12 year old son need to fast on Yom Kippur?

new oldie ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:14 am

We are litvish yeshivish and we just discuss with our kids how it might be helpful to fast a fast or two before BM just to see how they fast. We don’t choose a long one, we aim for asarah beteves and that way we have some sort of idea before it’s a chiyuv.

↑ Elfrida

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:19 am

new oldie wrote:

That makes sense. The first time I fasted it was Yom Kippur, and everyone was making a huge fuss beforehand about how I might feel, and what I should do, and when I might need to leave shul to come home, or if the walk home might be too far, or any other possible scenario.

By the end of the day I felt perfectly well, and was wondering what all the fuss had been about!

↑ watergirl ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:19 am

Ruchel wrote:

Unfortunately when many at school do some kids want

"Yes, I hear you that you want to try to fast like your friends do and I know it's annoying to be left out of a post-fast conversation. Your mitzvah today is to eat and make many brachos, not to fast. You will not be fasting."

↑ watergirl

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:20 am

Elfrida wrote:

Cruel sounds a bit extreme to me. Extraneous, yes, but many twelve year olds can fast with no problem, and many twenty year olds still have a hard time. It's more based on personal metabolism and physiology than age.

I have no argument with the concept of asking a Rav, or following his answer. Just the way he expressed it.

To restrict food and water when there is no requirement to do so is cruel.

amother

↑ Daphne

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:23 am

Elfrida wrote:

I think what Watergirl was saying is that it's cruelty on the parent's part when they tell the 12 year old he must fast these 25 hours, call it practice for next year or minhag or whatever, it's unfair to the kid. I agree with that.

amother

Violet

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:24 am

We've done research and apparently there is no source to the 3 fasts minhag. But there is more than a minhag for a12 year olds to fast on YK, but most many poskim hold that ppl are weaker nowadays and they don't have to fast.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:27 am

We don't hold there's a source for the 3 fasts before but we do hold there's a little chinuch involved specifically on YK, so depending on the kid, it may be skipping/delaying breakfast or waiting till chatzos.... Starting at age 11.
We let our kids be involved in the decision and they usually want to do more than they should.

amother

Hyacinth ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:30 am

watergirl wrote:

Both my husband and I both heard there is a minhag in which one must fast for three fasts leading up to bar/bat mitzvah so we made our oldest few do this. After reading on this site (thanks imamother!) that people asked their LORs who said NOT to do this, we asked our own who was so frustrated that people even think this is a thing.

Our rav (chassidish) told us it's cruel to make anyone fast who does not have to, and there is NO reasoning or backing for this and it's not anything close to a minhag. He called it cruel shtus.

We have to be very careful to check in with our own rav - all of us - before doing things that we just do because it sounds like it's a thing.

Yes our yeshivish Rav agrees with that. There is no such thing as "practicing" to fast. You fast or you don't. Don't make a 12 year old suffer for no reason.
He says most that do it don't have that minhag they just "think" they're supposed to.

amother

↑ Hyacinth ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:32 am

new oldie wrote:

Why in the world would you have to "see how they fast".
Many people have issues come up during a fast and if it's not a minor fast will call a Rav to see what to do about breaking it. Why would an extra fast help at all?

amother

↑ Hyacinth ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:33 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

This I hear. I also don't give my kids treat on the sad fast days like Shiva Asar BTammuz or Asara BTeves or Tisha Bav...

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 11:52 am

We don't do 3 fasts, my LOR says there's no source for it. However there is an inyan to fast on YK even before BM. So we do approx age 11 til chatzos and approx age 12 as much of the day as they can (they usually manage all day).

keym

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 12:18 pm

Its interesting. My son was learning the mishnayos in Yuma recently about this so we discussed it with our Rav.

The mishna says that a year or 2 before chiyuv, children should fast a bit.

We don't do 3 fasts before anything. But we talked to our Rav. On YK age 10, they delay breakfast until 10 or so. On YK, age 11, they try to go until lunchtime. On YK, age 12, they try to fast the whole thing.
But if they're not doing well, or I as a mother have concerns, we stop earlier.

But my kids aren't breakfast eaters mostly so not eating until 11 or 12 is not hard for them.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 12:27 pm

amother OP wrote:

I will ask a rav but I’m curious what others do.
He just turned 12 at the end of the summer.
I know there’s something about fasting on Yom Kippur the year before bar mitzvah?
Anyone know?

He begs to fast, we will let him try

amother

cornflower

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 12:33 pm

watergirl wrote:

Thank you for posting this! We asked before our oldest son was bar mitzvah because so many people talk about 3 fasts before but I don't remember this from growing up and neither did my husband. Our rav (litvish) also said that there is no source for this and people do this on their own and he held that it shouldn't be done. Even though a lot of boys in his class were doing it, it was a very compelling lesson in asking shailos and following a rav.

↑ Chayalle

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 12:34 pm

new oldie wrote:

How is it helpful?

goodmorning

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 12:37 pm

There's no source for the "3 fasts before bar/bas mitzvah" but there is a source for healthy 11 and 12 year olds fasting specifically on YK.

SA OC 616:2

Quote:

בן י"א בין זכר בין נקבה מתענים ומשלימי' מדברי סופרים כדי לחנכן במצו': הגה וי"א שאינן צריכים להשלים מדרבנן כלל (ר"ן וא"ז ובהגהות מיימוני בשם ה"ג ורוקח ורא"ם) ויש לסמוך עלייהו בנער שהוא כחוש ואינו חזק להתענות (תרומת הדשן סימן קנ"ה)
An eleven year old child, whether a boy or a girl fasts for the complete day, as we learn from the words of the Soferim to train them in the commandments.
Hagah: There are those who say that (for children) according to the rabbis’ rulings, it is not necessary to complete the fast at all, (ר״ן וא״ז ובהגהות מיימוני בשם ה״ג דרוקח ורא״ם). You may rely upon this (lenient decision of the Yeish Omrim) with respect to a youth who is thin and is not strong enough to fast, (תרומת הדשן סימן קנ״ה).

amother

↑ Snapdragon ↓

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 1:35 pm

Elfrida wrote:

Chadidem are very careful with health when it comes to fasting and will pater people from fasting give heterim much sooner while by litvish fasting is much stronger...

↑ Ruchel

Thu, Sep 26 2024, 1:43 pm

amother Snapdragon wrote:

Chadidem are very careful with health when it comes to fasting and will pater people from fasting give heterim much sooner while by litvish fasting is much stronger...

Saw that about chassidim
Especially for women