How to handle chutzpadig, stubborn, fighting 12 year old?

amother

OP ↓

Mon, Sep 09 2024, 11:03 pm

I'm sure many people here will disagree with how I've handled ds so far this week, and that's fine, as long as you are not too harsh. I have no idea what to do with him now.

Ds is 12. He is a very bright, social and athletic. He's got everything going for him. He can behave beautifully when he is in the mood, but sometimes he can be so chutzpadig. He also fights a lot with his little brother.

The little brother is a few years younger, and is delayed in many areas. My 12 year old loves to bother him and make him scream and fight back. Little brother hits him or throws things at him out of anger, and the 12 year old hits him back even harder. They seem incapable of inhabiting the same room without fighting, unless they are busy playing together. Then they can be happy for hours. But fighting happens more often.

Ds does not love going to shul. He is almost bar mitzvah, and he has to get used to it. When he was 11, we started making him go to shul for 1 tefila every Shabbos. He fought us sometimes. He usually went for mussaf and stayed for the kiddush. By now he sometimes goes Friday night for Mincha and Maariv, and he generally goes for part of Shacharis/Mussaf. He doesn't usually complain about going anymore, but sometimes he's not in the mood.

This Shabbos morning, he woke up around 9 and immediately started fighting with my younger son. Shul starts at 9, so I told him to stop fighting and get ready for shul. He said okay and continued fighting. Finally, at 9:30, I had enough. I told him he will get himself to shul by 10 or he will lose computer privileges on Monday. That's today.

He hung out in my bed for another 15 minutes, and then quickly got up and got dressed in 5 minutes. Then he asked if I could give him a few more minutes because if he goes to shul without eating, he won't be able to daven. I said he should have thought about that before spending 15 minutes playing in bed. Anyway, he still had 10 minutes in which he could eat. (The shul is right across the street, so there is no real travel time.)

He got angry and threw a chair across the room. It landed maybe a foot away from me, and I had my baby on my lap. Then he sat down to eat as if nothing happened.

He had one piece of cake. I informed him it was 10:00 as he cut a second piece of cake. He calmly ate the second piece and then went to shul at 10:05.

So today I told him he could not use the computer. On school nights, my younger son earns up to 15 minutes of computer time for good behavior, so I allow my 12 year old to do the same. He loves using the computer, and usually ends up on it for more than 15 minutes. He was not happy to be told he couldn't use it tonight.

He responded by throwing toys around the house, yelling and screaming, slamming doors, and telling me it's all my fault he's misbehaving because I am insisting on being mean to him. He also kept saying that since we live in a small apartment with no basement and no fun things like ping pong tables and climbing walls and trampolines, there is nothing fun to do here, so he needs to spend time on the computer. All of his friends have much bigger houses and much funner toys, so they have less need to use the computer for entertainment.

I reminded him about his friend who lives in a smaller apartment than ours with a much bigger family and who has no internet in their apartment. He did not appreciate my input.

At one point I told him if he continues acting this way, I would take away his computer time tomorrow too, and he promised to act even worse each day that I take it away. Grr!

I ended up saying he could clean up the puzzles he threw all over the house and if he can do that without being chutzpadig, he could still use the computer tomorrow. He continued being horrible for the next hour or so, then he finally cleaned up the puzzles with minor comments an complaints.

What on earth am I doing wrong? A lot of his anger definitely comes from having no money and living in a small, shabby apartment. His current friends are much more well off, and he feels inferior. He yelled at me tonight that the reason he's so bored when he can't use the computer is because his parents can't manage to make enough money to buy a normal house. He feels terrible about our financial situation. I don't really have the power to change that.

There is also his addiction to screens which is problematic.

What am I supposed to do with him?

Molly Weasley ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:15 am

Okay, a couple of quick thoughts:

1) Right out of the gate, your son has an anger problem. He shouldn't be throwing anything at that age, especially not a chair. This is beyond the usual bad behavior and fighting.

2) Lack of money is an excuse, not a reason. Don’t focus on that.

3) Where is DH? If he's not around, does he have a father figure you can work with to help him sort this out?

4) Last but not least, consequences should be immediate to be effective. Losing computer privileges 48 hours later may not be the right approach. Also, if you want a consequence to be effective, it must be consistent. Don’t give him a way out of it; it shows weakness.

↑ Molly Weasley ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:17 am

One more point, you might want to use his addiction to screens as a reinforcer. As long as only moderately used, it should be fine

In other words, he needs to earn the ability to use the computer, it's not a given otherwise

giftedmom ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:22 am

What jumps out at me is the constant back and forth power struggle between both of you. Where is your relationship? I’m sure you love him but does he know that? Does he feel it? Does he feel like you’re on the same team?
Figure out how to rebuild from the ground up, focus on that. The rest of it is just commentary.

tichellady

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:22 am

I’m not an expert but I wouldn’t call playing on a computer a computer addiction. I also don’t think that taking away computer time days later is going to be very effective.
Have you talked to him about how to make shul better for him? Is there a different shul he prefers? Do you know why it’s hard for him?

Frumomsi

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:28 am

Firstly, sorry you are going through this.

I’d recommend strongly that you reach out to a trusted mechanech/professional who knows you and your son. Advice on this forum can be quite slanted.

It’s a struggle to raise our kids but dealing with such an issue at this age is more difficult but very urgent! Please do reach out to a professional.

amother

Chestnut

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:29 am

giftedmom wrote:

Sorry but this is very oversimplified.

↑ Molly Weasley

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 12:56 am

giftedmom wrote:

He's throwing chairs.

amother

Magnolia

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 1:06 am

Many mothers don't realize that teenage boys are small men.
If he's your oldest son, you might need to rethink how to talk to him.
A man needs to feel his independence, to assert his masculinity. A teenage boy who isn't given that space will respond by being aggressive.
Can you hand over some of the responsibility to him? At this age, you shouldn't be threatening and bribing all the time. It sounds like much of the day is a power struggle between you. Can you give him a certain level of power over something so that he isn't craving that assertiveness?

You punish him, he punishes you. Back and forth.
You assert your authority, he asserts his. Back and forth.

What responsibilities does he have in the house?

Another thing that strikes me is that he is bored out of his wits. If he's not on the computer, what is he doing?
What's he doing in your bed? He didn't have a book to read? a game to play? something to do?
Try finding him some hobbies and he won't be so bored. It's not about time or money. It's about finding interests.

slushiemom

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 2:06 am

That sounds really difficult to deal with.

I have a kid who had real behavioral issues as a kid. Honestly, the one thing that completely changed my life and the dynamics in my house for the better was a parenting course called Shefer. It's a long course, 20 sessions so I can't really get into the details of it, but here are a couple of key points that truly made a difference when I internalized it and put into practice:

1- Your child knows exactly what you expect of them. You are raising them, they are living in your home- the vast majority of things we feel we need to tell them to do don't actually need to be verbalized.

2- We can't actually control our kids. They are 100% their own people with their own decisions, even if we set guidelines and boundaries.

3- Responsibility - It isn't possible for two people to hold/feel/internalize the responsibility of any one given task/action/behavior. If we as parents feel the responsibility for things our kids should be shouldering, the kids know that they're "secondary" in the behavior and won't take on the pressure of having to achieve that action, rather they know that we will nudge to make sure it's done- Best example of this is homework. The child is the one who will have to face their teacher and suffer consequences if they don't do homework. A parent who constantly breathes down their kids neck to make sure they do their homework isn't giving the kid the chance to shoulder that responsibility for themselves.

4- Natural consequences vs. punishments - Is there a consequence he would have suffered from not attending shul that's a lot closer to the behavior itself than losing computer time? In reality, those two things have nothing to do with each other, and punishments that "don't make sense" generally don't change behaviors.

5- Ignore the behavior, not the child - Tying in the above points, the Shefer approach would be to not say a single word about your son going to shul, because he already knows 100% what your expectations are, and even try not to think about it, because he'll pick up on your stress about it. That transfers the responsibility to him, and in all likelihood, the natural thing for people to do is to step into their responsibility, even if it takes time, and there are steps backwards while moving forward. If he's not going to shul, Shefer would say to continue relating to your child AS THOUGH HE'S BEHAVING - why? Because your words don't need to be verbalized- he already knows, and verbalizing the words throws us into cycles of arguing.

In every class we took, we would learn a theory, choose ONE behavior of ONE child to actualize it on, and then report back the next week. I cannot tell you the amount of times people would come back in amazement that it actually works - it plays to the very core of our human nature, and bluntly holds a mirror to reality.

I hope this helps!

One more thing- I found the pre-teen/early teen years to be the absolute hardest in terms of behavior/chutzpah/stubborness etc. Once they hit 14/15 there was a huge shift bH and the issues we had when he was younger all but disappeared. Baruch Hashem!!

amother

Fuchsia ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:23 am

He sounds very dysregulated. Based on my own personal experience, my mind always goes the biomedical direction. Pandas/pans/brain inflammation, food intolerances, gut dysbiosis, nutrient deficiencies... don't underestimate the effect all of these can have on behavior. Fwiw my ds10 starts refusing shul when he's in a pans flare. And the procrastinating/delaying tactics and then getting mad and blaming when I follow through are exactly the same. This is aside from the obvious rages, aggressions, meltdowns, defiance and picking fights.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:39 am

Molly Weasley wrote:

1- Maybe true. What can I do to help?

2-No. Lack of money really makes him feel inferior to his friends. He is also genuinely afraid that we are incapable of feeding the family because one time we had to borrow money from him for a grocery shopping. We paid him beck the next week, but we shouldn't have borrowed from him because knowing we couldn't afford food scares him.

3-Dh works long hours and travels long to get to and from work. He was already in shul on Shabbos morning when ds woke up.

4- I agree. I just couldn't think of an immediate consequence. And believe me, I thought about letting it slip that he went 5 minutes late because I knew it wouldn't be easy, but I knew that wouldn't teach him anything.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:41 am

slushiemom wrote:

I need to think about this. The main problem I have with it is that I could ignore his staying home from shul if he wouldn't be torturing his brother instead. He knows my little son is no match for him and will get angry and blow up, so he enjoys being mean to him to get that reaction. I can't ignore that. My poor little ds needs me to keep him safe.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:43 am

amother Fuchsia wrote:

He is a very picky eater who dislikes most healthy foods. He will not eat them no matter what, so there's really nothing I can do. I have a rule about no snacks until you've eaten something that counts as a meal, which is very mean of me because he doesn't like anything for most meals, so he sneaks snacks anyway.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:44 am

Frumomsi wrote:

Yes, I think we do need advice from a professional. The problem is they cost money and we don't have any.

amother

Strawberry

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 6:45 am

Is he your oldest? It sounds like he thinks he's your co rather than your son but then he gets told what he must do and he fights that since he wants the power of being a co.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 7:18 am

No, he's not my oldest. What makes you think he sounds like my co? Because I once borrowed money from him?

amother

Tuberose ↓

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 7:32 am

The violence has to be a red line he can’t cross with an instant consequence. Taking away computer time two days later doesn’t usually work well because it’s not close enough to the incident. Sounds like he does need professional help or at the very least a mentor out of the house. He also needs to build a better relationship with his father. Your husband needs to carve out time to bond with him and make him feel more of a little man.

amother

↑ Tuberose

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 7:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes, I think we do need advice from a professional. The problem is they cost money and we don't have any.

You can find therapists who specialize in parenting that take insurance.

amother

Candycane

Tue, Sep 10 2024, 7:48 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes, I think we do need advice from a professional. The problem is they cost money and we don't have any.

Can you talk to his rebbi or principal? I find they have so much experience with the specific age, their help May be enough and you won’t have to pay for it.