Can the older generation alleviate the housing crises?

amother

Springgreen ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:23 pm

Am I missing something or has this thread gotten so detailed from the original intention. I never read op asking parents to give away their houses for free, or to live in their own guest rooms.
My understanding on reading the OP was something more like - wouldn't it be nice if it was normalized for older couples who've married off their children to sell their homes for market value, be able to downsize to a comfortable place that fits their needs, and have money to live off in their retirement, therebye putting more larger houses on the market. My grandparents did that. They didn't do anybody any favors with their selling price or gift their family their life savings. They just moved to a smaller, more practical place and opened the opportunity for a large young family to move into their old home.

amother

↑ Foxglove ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:26 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

And everyone is saying that if they wanted to do that, they would, as you said your grandparents did. Who are we to say what they should want just because someone is coveting their space?

amother

↑ Cornsilk

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:29 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

She didn’t say that. She said she can’t afford the houses in her area.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:49 pm

amother Olive wrote:

I don't think some of the American posters understand Europe. It's much more densely populated and the cities are old and people sort of live on top of each other. The Jewish community is also much smaller.

You can't just move to a random area and find a plot of land to build a shul or school on. You may be able to move to an area adjacent to a Jewish area, like Mill Hill East in London which is up and coming but it's still very expensive. You have a million Jews in NY, it's a much bigger pool to build a new community from and much more space to move out to.

Thank you!

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:54 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

Guest room? Basement?
Banging head

In a house they worked hard to own? If there is enough room then the children ca be in the other bedrooms that are available. If the grandparents are ok with the setup.

OP is in 400 square feet with a husband and two children. They both work.

The "worked hard to own" dynamic is not available anymore in these new conditions. Life changes. Under harsh conditions, you don't stand on ceremony who leaves a burning building first.

OP's kids are growing up in completely unacceptable conditions. This is a new world, now.

Yes, it might be easier on the grandparents to stay in their bedroom, with its familiar layout and closets, but fitting the other family in there somehow is becoming what needs to be done. People are literally not getting born. OP isn't just unhappy, she is effectively sterilized. She can't see having a third child in 400 square feet.

This is becoming more like a necessity than a choice.

At some point, you have social breakdown.

It would be nice if none of us were poverty stricken peasants. But you sure don't want nobility / peasantry divisions within one family.

amother

↑ Foxglove

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 7:05 pm

amother Springgreen wrote:

We aren't anyone to make other people do anything. I absolutely read it as wishful thinking, not a who will join me in pushing our parents out of their homes so we can move in post 🤷

Wishful thinking about someone else's property just feels icky, and is straight up against halacha. Can you imagine me looking at my neighbor's SUV and wondering why they feel the need to keep such a large car when they don't have kids? Don't they know there's a shortage of used cars here? And new, large cars are outrageously priced! Wouldn't it be nice if people who don't have large families traded cars with people who do have large families? Or let us use the car for family outings so we don't have to take two cars? The empty seats are just being wasted.

Why does my grandmother keep all her expensive jewelry? She never goes out anywhere, and it's just sitting in her jewelry box. I go out all the time and have no nice jewelry. The prices for jewelry have just gone up too high. Wouldn't it be great if she would let me wear her jewelry that's just sitting there anyway?

https://torah.org/learning/bus.....no39/

amother

↑ RosePink ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 7:21 pm

amother Wheat wrote:

Where is the OP suggesting that people sell their houses for below market value?

I absolutely think many older people would be much happier in smaller and more manageable houses or apartments. I know many older people who move, its quite normal to do so. Also a person who brought up a family in a suburb or yishuv, might be happier moving into a more central city at an older age.

And if parents want to sell or rent their house (or part of it) to their kids, absolutely it should be at market value. Although it is true that the child who ends up living with their parent will probably end up taking on a lot of care duties so I think some discount would be fair.

Because selling a home for fair market value is not going to make homes more affordable as supply isn't going to suddenly become so much that the houses become cheap.

It's not a solution to alleviate the housing crisis.

And there has been at least one poster who has keeps suggesting that a parent should move into the basement and let the child move into the home with the implication being that the parent is selfish not to do this.

Many older people downsize from their large homes - it doesn't seem to impact the price of homes in desirable areas.

The very modest two family childhood home in Midwood sold for over $1 million recently. Based on the date of the previous sale, it had been owned by the same person for about 20 years or more years.

↑ Dolly Welsh ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 7:58 pm

Not selfish. But maybe a little oblivious.

I don't ask them to go weeping for the entire neighborhood's troubles, but their own children's troubles, yes, I expect them to do some thinking and sensible pondering.

At some point how can you not notice.

Before you tell me family are troublesome, I remind you that everybody is troublesome at the beginning and at the end of life, and often in the middle, too.

Your views are perfectly fine for the old days. We are in new days now.

amother

↑ Watermelon ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 9:15 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

The point of this thread is it is chaval to have houses that are half empty because they house an elderly couple while young people with little kids have to be in a 2 bedroom.
And no it’s not about the kids owning a house.
It’s about grandkids growing up in subpar conditions.
Do I as a grandparent not care that my grandchildren grow up in a tiny apartment with no backyard?
Is there nothing I can do about it? Is teaching my kids a lesson more important than giving my grandchildren space to grow and thrive?

Do you think our grandparents grew up in huge houses with big backyards?? News flash...most of them didn't and turned out just fine. They worked themselves up to where they are today. My grandparents grew up in crowded apartments in Brownsville, lower east side, Williamsburg etc... most of our grandparents also didn't get new clothes every season, didn't go out to eat, and didn't go on vacations. Some of the people occupying these huge houses that you think is unfair survived the holocaust. What entitlement to say they should move into the basement so your kids should have a nicer place to live.

amother

↑ Denim

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 9:17 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Sure. But what they built wasn't a house. It was grandchildren. Who are living in 400 square feet with their parents. That isn't just inconvenient. It does two things: it makes them nuts, and it prevents more siblings arriving.

What exactly did they build? They built a family. The house is just bricks and sticks.

Seriously, is the only way to get out of this 400 square feet that you so love harping on moving into Grandma's home?

There are other options but OP doesn't want them. She wants to stay in this neighborhood so let her deal with the 400 square feet that she has. If she'd really want to make it work she'll fi d another solution that doesn't involve taking away or taking over grandma's house

↑ Dolly Welsh

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 10:40 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

The guest room, and even a fixed-up basement, of a nice house, is not some hell hole. It's a nice house. All of its parts are nice. You are right to recall the simpler times when there was less materialism. I am invoking that too.

I never, ever used the word "unfair." The great Rebbetzin Jungreis, z"l, said the word "fair" is not a word to ever use.

Not unfair. Just not common sense.

And it's not "have a nicer place to live." It's "have a life at all."

Grandma lives near the good shuls and schools. To banish younger couples to be far from them is to dilute the future. In OP's case, to limit her to two children. We want to PRESERVE these schools and shuls, and that involves having new people going to them.

And anyway, it's fun. It's fun to have your own around you. It's also reassuring to have younger people nearby to ask for help.

And certainly the young parents can be in the smallest bedroom. They are used to small space already and won't have attitude about that.

↑ GLUE

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:06 pm

There was a neighborhood in Chicago that had a problem. The neighborhood was turning into a NFRC(natural forming retirement community)the people were living in houses that was getting to big for them, many were on fixed incomes and could not afford their homes. At the same time they wanted to age in place.

With the suburbia of Chicago stretching out to Iowa, there is a housing problem with the city. Finding an apartment in the city is expensive and hard to find.

Someone had an idea they got the home owners to put an apartment in their house. This helped both sets of people. renters got a place in the city to live, and the home owners where able to age in place.

This is not for everyone, but I don't think OP idea that people living in large houses that they are not using to split it is such a bad idea. It can work. I think this is what OP means when she says people should split their houses. Not that they should move out to nursing homes or live in the guest room.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:12 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

What message is Hashem giving us here?
Is the only option (as you wrote: " what needs to be done") is demanding Bubby and Zeidy's bedroom?

The "work to own" dynamic is a Torah dynamic. Asking Bubby and Zeidy to leave their bedroom is not.
If the "work to own" dynamic is truly not available anymore, as you wrote "Life changes" (meaning Hashem makes thing happen - as Jews we understand that Hashem runs the world), what is Hashem telling us??

Now I personally hold by the downsizing when most of your kids are married. This holding onto a large home because of the hosting is not healthy, IMHO. People I know who did that were shamed by their peers for downsizing. (How are you going to host all the family in your small apartment? You had a big home - what happened? Did you have financial problems?". But thats another thread.

I personally think its too much of a burdon for an elderly couple to care for a large home - what usually happens is it get run down, and after 120 finally sold to a wealthy young couple who has the means to renovate.

It should be noted that even the Gemara states that there is no limiting of real estate values so homes are sold for the best price a person can get for them. Rabbanim cant put a cap on this.

So I return to my question, What does Hashem want from us?

Is OPs neighborhood the only place in this whole wide world where she can live?

OP is not "effectively sterilized" because she is in 400 sq ft, she is effectively sterilized because she wont consider leaving her neighborhood. And is enticed to "fantasize" (her word) about her parents and grandparents mansions. I think OP has other options.

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 11:21 pm

amother Sapphire wrote:

Well I have been referring to some cultures where it is done, because people believe that they need to equip their kids with a property anyway. My own uncle switched up with his son and moved into a smaller apartment and gave the son a bigger apartment because he was raising a family.
The uncle doesn’t need the space.

I wonder if people who got help from parents to buy a house would want to give the same to their own kids. Or will they let their kids be „independent“?

Do you guys also kick out your teens at 18 because your job is legally done?
Is it the same attitude as the postpartum help?
If noone helped me, I will help noone.
Why would noone want to break the cycle?

I just wish the help the kids get (your examples were pp, help after 18,etc) was appreciated and not considered standard and expected (cause everyone is getting it)....sigh...Its become a demand and not a help, and if parents dont give help, the kids stop talking to them...

As to your wonder, I like to think we all understood that money comes from Hashem. Helping our kids is really from Hashem who gives us the money to give to them.
The Dead Sea is called that because it gets but doesnt give....

↑ B'Syata D'Shmya ↓

Thu, Aug 29 2024, 12:00 am

GLUE wrote:

That means the renters never own?
Elderly owners usually dont want the noise, mess and other negatives of renters on their personal space.