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Fox
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 Tue, Aug 27 2024, 7:48 pm
| amother Rose wrote: | Which generation is this? I'm in my fifties and we all worked, and still work.
My parents generation did not work, but they hand washed diapers... my mother did not own a dryer, and cleaning help was much less common (at least where I lived). |
This! A thousand times over!
I find myself frequently infuriated by how much sheer distortion and romanticizing goes on about the 60s-80s.
Think housing was cheaper? Yes, it was. But maybe you don't realize that the prime interest rate in the early 80s reached 18 percent! Houses were often sold "on contract" because no one could afford or qualify for a bank mortgage.
I'm 63, and the vast majority of women I know work outside the home. Many in very demanding careers or in their own businesses. Quite a few of our mothers did, too. Being a SAHM is not the norm in any of the circles I move.
I, too, remember hanging laundry in the basement during the winter and outside during the summer. We got our first dryer when I was a teenager, and we considered ourselves quite posh to have afforded such an item.
When my parents got an extension phone for their bedroom? Ooh, la la! It was $3 a month extra -- not something you'd do on a whim.
There is not some mythical era in which standards of living were high AND everyone had an ample income. Don't be naive. Certain things were harder. Certain things were easier. Just like the rest of history.
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tichellady
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 7:53 pm
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Many older people would actually be happier if they downsized but it’s complicated and hard. My parents wished my grandparents would move out of their house which they could no longer take care of properly
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 8:31 pm
| amother Rose wrote: | Which generation is this? I'm in my fifties and we all worked, and still work.
My parents generation did not work, but they hand washed diapers... my mother did not own a dryer, and cleaning help was much less common (at least where I lived).
I don't know where you live, but the frum world is a really big place. You can even move to another country... and acclimate easily if you speak the language and there is frum infrastructure. |
Nope. I‘m telling you, where we live, my kids would have to learn new languages in order to move. My whole family lives here, I would never pick myself up and move to live in another country all on my own.
Would you?
Yes, my mother is in her high fifties and where I live, nobody of that generation worked. Yes they did live more modestly because there was much less pressure, and things to get generally. My mother did own a dryer and had cleaning help every day. It was all possible on one income.
We really don’t lead a luxurious lifestyle, there are almost no restaurants where I live, and no jewish clothing shops.
It’s simply that the city we live in has been rated the most expensive to live in in the whole world.
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GLUE
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 8:37 pm
| amother Vermilion wrote: |
It’s simply that the city we live in has been rated the most expensive to live in in the whole world. |
You learn new things every day, I did not know there was a frum community in Singapore.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 8:47 pm
| GLUE wrote: | | You learn new things every day, I did not know there was a frum community in Singapore. |
😂
Not singapore. I guess it depends on which website you look at. It’s Zurich, Switzerland.
I know I sound very negative, but aside for the financial aspect I love living here.
I love the wholesome and simple chinuch here and I love that we have way way less pressure here. We hardly have any jewish stores and luxury here, which is sometimes really annoying but mostly healthy for our families.
Finding affordable apartments has simply become a fantasy here…we would have to give half or three quarters of our combined income in order to cover just rent alone.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 8:52 pm
| amother Rose wrote: |  probably Zurich, though, which is rated the third most expensive city in the world.
Her problem is very specific to her though, can't really extrapolate to every frum community. I mean, I know plenty of frum women, living in 2024, who live in nice houses and don't work outside the home. There's always rich people and poor people... in every generation. |
„The most expensive city in the world is Singapore, tied with Zurich, according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's (EIU) latest Worldwide Cost of Living survey“
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 8:56 pm
| amother Vermilion wrote: | Nope. I‘m telling you, where we live, my kids would have to learn new languages in order to move. My whole family lives here, I would never pick myself up and move to live in another country all on my own.
Would you?
Yes, my mother is in her high fifties and where I live, nobody of that generation worked. Yes they did live more modestly because there was much less pressure, and things to get generally. My mother did own a dryer and had cleaning help every day. It was all possible on one income.
We really don’t lead a luxurious lifestyle, there are almost no restaurants where I live, and no jewish clothing shops.
It’s simply that the city we live in has been rated the most expensive to live in in the whole world. |
I don’t know where you lived but I don’t know anyone who had cleaning help every day and certainly not someone where the wife stayed at home.
That lifestyle never existed in New York or New Jersey unless the husband was an extremely well paid professional.
My grandmother worked in the 1950’s as did her friends and no one had cleaning help every day. They had cleaners every other week or maybe once a week if they splurged.
It certainly wasn’t what I would call an affluent lifestyle but it wouid have been lower middle class on one salary instead of slightly middle class. No one took vacations except maybe for a week to a place you could drive to.
I do agree with Fox that people seem to have a misty view of how people actually lived back then.
Clothing was pretty expensive because it was all made in the USA and there were no cheap imports. You know why older homes have small closets - because people owned fewer items of clothing because they were expensive.
Kids had fewer toys because toys were expensive as there were no cheap Chinese toys.
And there were other expenses people take for granted because no one had computers, cell phones, WiFi.
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familyfirst
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:03 pm
Just stating the obvious-
As with everything in life, you are making a choice. Saying yes to Your choice to live in Zurich, is saying no to renting-buying a more affordable home.
That lifestyle is not sustainable. What is your plan when your kids get older?
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GLUE
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:06 pm
Every generation had it's own problems.
I do think that many people don't realize how bad the housing crises is for generation z.
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A few years ago Prospect Park school moved from Brooklyn to Monsey. At the grand opening someone got up to speak and said,
"This is the third time the school moved because at the old location there was not enough kids to keep it open".
I don't remember the whole speech(it was written up a few places)the gist of it was that communities spend a lot of money building up it's community then the next generation can't afford to live there so they move out and start all over.
The speaker was saying how we as a community should make an effort that we don't have to keep repeating this cycle again and again.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:14 pm
| GLUE wrote: | Every generation had it's own problems.
I do think that many people don't realize how bad the housing crises is for generation z.
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A few years ago Prospect Park school moved from Brooklyn to Monsey. At the grand opening someone got up to speak and said,
"This is the third time the school moved because at the old location there was not enough kids to keep it open".
I don't remember the whole speech(it was written up a few places)the gist of it was that communities spend a lot of money building up it's community then the next generation can't afford to live there so they move out and start all over.
The speaker was saying how we as a community should make an effort that we don't have to keep repeating this cycle again and again. |
When I was born my family lived in East Flatbush. I heard it's making a comeback now... in those years they moved because the neighborhood went bad. Now, we are moving because it's too expensive. Life is never free of problems...
It's true that the housing market is very, very bad right now. These things go in cycles and hopefully things will change soon.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:23 pm
| familyfirst wrote: | Just stating the obvious-
As with everything in life, you are making a choice. Saying yes to Your choice to live in Zurich, is saying no to renting-buying a more affordable home.
That lifestyle is not sustainable. What is your plan when your kids get older? |
But as stated, I don’t really have realistic choices. Moving away to live alone, with no support system is a very drastic step.
I have no plan, like the rest of my generation…we’re all in the same boat.
Hoping on some kind of a miracle.
People have begun moving further away from the „chulent“ where apartments are a drop cheaper. I would be open to that, if have another frum family or two on the block.
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GLUE
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:26 pm
| amother Vermilion wrote: | But as stated, I don’t really have realistic choices. Moving away to live alone, with no support system is a very drastic step.
I have no plan, like the rest of my generation…we’re all in the same boat.
Hoping on some kind of a miracle.
People have begun moving further away from the „chulent“ where apartments are a drop cheaper. I would be open to that, if have another frum family or two on the block. |
If everyone is in the same boat as you, can you maybe get a few people to move with you together?
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B'Syata D'Shmya
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:48 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I am writing this due to my very uncomfortable situation. I am literally at a loss.
I come from a city where the young generation does not have where to live. This is not an exaggeration of any kind. There are no nearby places for young couples to go. The community is looking to expand and relocate but there are literally no option. It's not in the USA like Monsey or Lakewood where people can move out.
This is where I start wondering. There are many older couples who have married off their children and are living in huge houses with 4,5,6 bedrooms, huge living dining room and kitchen. I wish those older couples would see their children and grandchildren struggling with raising families in holes. I live in 400 square feet with 2 growing kids. I literally do not have where to put another kid.
If those grandparents would split their houses and rent out the units to 2-3 families (including basement and loft) it would really alleviate the housing crises. Those couples were fortunate to buy those houses when they were young marrieds themselves and now that they don't need it, it would be a great service to put some of them back on the market to sell.
I am thinking of two of my grandparents living in a ridiculous amount of space which hardly gets used. They can keep some parts for themselves and rent or sell the rest. Whenever I pass these huge empty houses, I fantasize.
Most of them have had a double digit family themselves and support large families. Now it's time for us to raise ours. But where?
I just feel so hopeless at the moment. What's going to be? Where should I raise my kids? In my tiny bedroom? Small windows, no porch, no space for my stroller or suitcases. |
Classic Al Tachmod. The Torah doesnt allow us to covet what others have. So lower it a notch.
Having said that, I understand your frustration. However not all homes are splittable in a comfortable or practical manner. Besides. You claim you dont have options, but you really do, you just dont want to consider them. When these families bought in your area, they gambled and baruch Hashem won. Their homes are now worth a lot. You can afford to buy such a home?
If the young gen has no where to live in your area, you may have no choice but to consider other areas. Demanding the older gen to move out or open their homes to your family is not a Torah solution.
It sounds like you are so mired in your own misery (which is understandable and I do not minimize your discomfort and dilemma), its hard to see the forest for the trees.
You write you are hopeless, but you really arent. You have a Rav for guidance, consult with him.
Having said that, I wonder if the older gen didnt have the burden of still caring for their married with children (and grandchildren) families if they wouldnt be more comfortable downsizing. As things stand, the older gen has to host often, take care of their children post partum and often enough to justify their needing such large homes. If the younger gen would alleviate that burden by not needing to be hosted and cared for, perhaps they would downsize happily. No one want to clean and upkeep rooms that are not used. Or pay taxes on the empty space!!. The older gen doesnt want to say no to their kids but honestly, they are also tired. The big house just allows them to do what they are being expected to do (all the hosting, helping etc.). imagine if the kids invited the parents to spend Yuntif by them! They wouldnt need the big house. Or they would happily renovate their homes to do what you suggest...
Last edited by B'Syata D'Shmya on Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 9:49 pm
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I’m curious OP.. do the non frum younger people in your country have the same housing issues?
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:04 pm
| GLUE wrote: | | If everyone is in the same boat as you, can you maybe get a few people to move with you together? |
So, it has been tried a couple of times and it never took off. It’s very different when renting apartments and not buying houses. I guess logistics are complicated here. I guess a wealthy yid would have to buy a couple of buildings and rent them out to just frum ppl…
It takes some kind of an asken to get it going and of course it needs to be with support of the community rabbanim, for some reason they have never supported such an idea so far.
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GLUE
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:16 pm
| amother Vermilion wrote: | So, it has been tried a couple of times and it never took off. It’s very different when renting apartments and not buying houses. I guess logistics are complicated here. I guess a wealthy yid would have to buy a couple of buildings and rent them out to just frum ppl…
It takes some kind of an asken to get it going and of course it needs to be with support of the community rabbanim, for some reason they have never supported such an idea so far. |
Does anyone in your community have any idea on how to help your generation not spend there whole pay check on housing?
Or is it just an issue that is not talked about?
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GLUE
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:21 pm
| amother Phlox wrote: | | I’m curious OP.. do the non frum younger people in your country have the same housing issues? |
Why do some people think that non Frum or non Jewish people don't have a housing crisis?
It's a world wide effecting people mostly young like generation z in countries like Australia, Iran, Tunisia, Canada, Germany, and many many more.
There is a reason there are YIMBY chapters in most major cities
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:31 pm
| GLUE wrote: | Does anyone in your community have any idea on how to help your generation not spend there whole pay check on housing?
Or is it just an issue that is not talked about? |
Oh we young people definitely talk about it.
The older generation are not affected by it…some of them own several buildings in our neighborhoods. The market has just become crazy. All young families suffer from it, also the non Jewish ones. They all takke move away from Zurich, we however can’t because we have to be in walking distance of a shul. We need jewish schools and kosher stores in our area.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:35 pm
| amother OP wrote: | But they didn't! They moved into an existing smaller community and hijacked all their conveniences.
Most of these women were stay at home mums. The men were in kollel and they STILL were able to buy huge houses in their twenties. In a city!!
Their tution was peanuts and was waived for many many large families because of the hashkafah of having many kids.
I wrote my OP because all I want is to know that I can have another kid! I don't need what they have. I am not asking for a study, a playroom, I don't need more than 1-2 bedrooms to fit all my kids iyh, I don't need a big front and back yard, I don't need parking because we don't have a car. I don't need a laundry room, hallway etc. I Just want a kitchen, decent living room and 2-3 bedrooms. I would love a small garden for the kids.
All I want is a healthy family.
I was just suggesting an idea and would like to hear others opinions RESPECTFULLY. |
This is communism and it comes along with a whole skew of intense problems, that you don't want, because no one has motivation to do anything.
What needs to happen is for the young families to do what there parents did and move out and start something new. You say you don't want to leave the support system, but that is what the older generation did - they moved out and started something new without a support system.
There ARE lower places with affordable housing in Zurich, they just don't have a frum infrastructure. So get a group together, find someone to start a kollel, and do what you parents did - build a life for yourselves.
Makes a lot more sense then asking people for handouts.....
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