Can the older generation alleviate the housing crises?

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 10:45 pm

amother Green wrote:

This is communism and it comes along with a whole skew of intense problems, that you don't want, because no one has motivation to do anything.

What needs to happen is for the young families to do what there parents did and move out and start something new. You say you don't want to leave the support system, but that is what the older generation did - they moved out and started something new without a support system.

There ARE lower places with affordable housing in Zurich, they just don't have a frum infrastructure. So get a group together, find someone to start a kollel, and do what you parents did - build a life for yourselves.

Makes a lot more sense then asking people for handouts.....

I don’t think Zurich can be compared to other jewish communities around the world.
Unfortunately we hardly have one kollel flourishing in Zurich. There are only a handful of kollel families in Zurich nowadays. The families that can’t afford normal housing are all working families, most of them both parents working.
The more affordable apartments are easily over half an hour away from all the shuls and schools. Opening another school is financially impossible, we hardly can get the one we have going. Private schools in Switzerland get zero funding from the government.
What would have to happen is a wealthy Jew buying a couple of buildings in one neighborhood and renting out to just Jews. Then we could organize bussing and open a small minyan. But buying several buildings in Zurich is extremely expensive nowadays, even for millionaires.

amother

↑ Sapphire ↓

Tue, Aug 27 2024, 11:58 pm

I feel like the is the result of old-school financial planning from the 70-s.
You save and buy your forever home that will be left for the „kids“. Meanwhile your life expectancy BH is such that you have kids and grandkids and you are still in your forever home and they have no benefit from your property.

DH and I live in a cheap rental, it’s not worth it to move out of it. We have bought multiple properties that we rent out and earn money with right now BH. They will be paid off at some point and bring pure cash. We were never house poor, our repairs are taken care of. We can sell the properties, gift them to our kids upon marriage to jumpstart their independence etc. It’s very versatile. We can use them as a down payment for a bigger home for us if we decide to. Much much more versatile than a single big house.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 1:54 am

GLUE wrote:

Did the price increase in Zurich just happen suddenly as in a big jump over the last few years, that took the community in surprise?
Or was it something that happen gradually a slow build up until now?

I think it went up gradually. Every few months the rents got more expensive. According to law you can only raise a small amount when someone is renting the apartment. But when looking for new tenants the owner can renovate and then raise the rent to how much they want. Zurich is a business town so people are willing to pay the price.

ora_43

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 2:23 am

Community problems require community solutions.

It doesn't make sense to tell the younger generation "so don't have so many kids," "so leave," etc. All of those 'solutions' have serious consequences. ("so leave" is a good solution for one family, even hundreds of families, but if everyone does it the original community dies out)

It also doesn't make sense to tell the older generation "hey, we're going to need your house now." When they made a decision to buy that house, they were taking into account that they'd be allowed to stay there as they grew older. If the deal had been 'you can have it now, but when your kids grow up you have to rent/sell,' they wouldn't have paid so much. Plus, like others said, downsizing often doesn't make financial sense.

Individuals can't solve community problems by being selfless. They can help a few people, which is obviously great and worthwhile, but as long as the wrong financial incentives are in place/ there's no proper planning at the top levels, there will still be a society-level crisis.

What I do think might make sense would be incentivizing renting. If someone splits their own residence to create a rental unit, they get a tax break on that new rental property for the first few years.

Other thoughts: make it more worthwhile to downsize (again, tax breaks), make it easier and more worthwhile to build affordable housing. Create new communities, as a community - meaning, like, rabbanim or other community leaders being an active part of helping groups of young couples find affordable areas to move to as a group.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 2:53 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

I only mentioned kollel cause you referred to it when speaking about the older generation. Its not really relevent - all you need is to be in commutable distance to the infrastructure, and a minyan for shabbos.

In other frum communities a half hour drive away is totally normal spread - take Lakewood - when people started moving to jackson it was also super out there. Even today, many people have a commute closer to an hour to school. Eventually, jackson will have its own schools, but there is work and commute is normal.

All you need is a group of 10 families to move to the cheaper parts of Zurich - so you have a minyan in someone's house. When you have the core group, people tend to follow, and eventually you can open a real shul, and have more organized bussing. I grew up traveling over an hour every day to school, it was fine.
Most kids in big thriving jewish communities spend 30 min - hour on buses anyways, a half hour drive is really not bad.

This is what happens in most growing frum communities. London, Manchester, Lakewood, Brooklyn, Monsey, all follow this pattern.

The housing gets too expensive, people move to a commutable area, and then it becomes big enough for it to have its own infrastructure, then it gets to expensive, and the young people look for the next area. BTW - schools in the states don't get funding from the gvt. either, and they pop up like mushrooms....

The idea of forcing people to split there homes isn't a solution, what happens with the next generation, when the big houses are all split up?

Eventually people need to move out of the comfort zone. BTW - thats also a good way to make money in real estate - by in a becoming frum area and sell when its frum.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 3:03 am

amother Green wrote:

Yeah, I get the concept. Splitting houses or forcing elderly people out was never my solution.
From what I understood is that frum schools in the states do get some funding, for bussing and limude chol, no?
Otherwise what was the whole scandal the ny times wrote about?
I would totally be ready to move further out, but I don’t think that rent is that much cheaper, unless you leave kanton (state) Zurich altogether and then you’re easily commuting over and hour for one way.

amother

↑ Olive ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 3:17 am

The government needs to build more houses/apartments to bring the prices down, it's supply and demand.

It's not so easy to get up and move, especially in Europe where the Jewish population is small and there are only a couple of places where they live.

I was very sensible and moved away from where I grew up as it was too expensive (in England). It wasn't so easy and it came with some loneliness. I still miss it and I miss my family and friends. I feel like my kids won't have as good a life as I had as the education is worse and there is less going on. We own a house which is nice but I still wonder whether it was the right decision overall. My husband is very happy so that's a positive.

amother

↑ Green ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 3:23 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

In NY you get some funding for bussing and for things like computers, its a minimal dent in the budget - other states don't have anything. They still manage to open up - usually there are big fundraising initiatives. And tuition is very very very expensive.

It makes a lot more sense to ask the wealthy people to help start a new school in a cheaper housing area then buy buildings.
There have been places that have the existing school open a branch - this streamlines costs and makes sense for the school, because in time all the young (school aged) families move to the more affordable areas.
Kosher food - I have lived in such places, usually the satellite community sets something up where the existing places do a weekly order, until they are big enough to have there own stores. Mikva is something you shlep for (its once a month) until you can afford to build one. Shul is in someone's house for a while.

You do need a rav and some macher types of people to spearhead an initiative, but once you have a core group, these things usally take off....

I have swiss family, and I think part of the problem is that the swiss/yekke/european culture is not very entrepreneurial and risk taking when compared to americans or isreali's (or even French).....

amother

Brunette ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 3:31 am

My parent’s generation is mid to high 70’s. My mother and her friends worked, (not sure why many think that generation did not have working women) They brought their parents into their homes. Sometimes with aids. And the homes were not always big but rather small apartments. Some of my friends and family own houses with three floors, not big, but they converted the first floor to a parent’s apartment, and live on the other two floors. The concept of inter generational living is not new. It has also been proven that it is beneficial to all ages.
If the older generation has a big beautiful house (not all do, plenty are in rentals or small homes. Or many have remortgaged time and time again for all kinds of reasons) and the families can find a mutual, working solution such as who pays expenses, who takes care of upkeep, how is the house divided- what is written in a will (all written and signed with witnesses)- it can work.
Many elderly are lonely because the younger generation does indeed move away for parnassah, community, housing, schools. And the younger community does lose out from lack of connections to older generations.
I am in my 50’s some of us lived in rent for many years and only bought in the last few years (moving closer to the children) and some are still in rentals. Most of us are working full time and are two income households.
Every Jewish community comes with it’s own housing challenges. In some communities it is necessary to stay closeknit. In others there is more freedom to spread out while maintaining lifestyle and connections. This is more evident outside of the tristate (NY,NJ,CT) area and Israel.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:06 am

amother Green wrote:

Unless the buildings are jewish owned there‘s very little chance they‘ll give it out to jewish families. And the families will have to live close to each other if they‘ll live that far away.

amother

Tanzanite

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:47 am

amother Foxglove wrote:

Sorry, I don't think that grandparents should be shoved aside in their own home because they are raising kids currently. How sad.

Seriously people.

Everyone is acting like op wants to force people out of their home. She never said that.

She pointed out something. Shes wondering how to make this a cultural phenomenon, not a "force".

And once people warm up to the idea AND THEIR FRIENDS DO IT many follow.

What op is talking about is happening right now in Flatbush as one early 70s couple and older after another movres out and decamps to Enclave or Fairways (55+ communities) in the Lakewood area. Literally 75% of my friends with parents in the demographic have had this happen. And its snowballing as they see more and more of their friends move.

And please dont nitpick on the details. The point is people copy eachother anf its becomes a culural phenomena.

Because lets be real, yes tge 50 to mid 60 year olds are using their large homes to home their teens and twenties and host multiple families on a steady basis. At the other end, as other have noted, it very agong for the very elderly to move - but thats like 80s and so.

Your early 70s is vibrant and driving, but slowing down. Look around. Most that age are going to their kids, not hosting. Thet are finding it hard to keep up with a large home that sees guests more and more rarely.
However, they have gotten used to having soace. They still want bedrooms to host sometimes. A spacious condo would work really well. Lakewood has great properties for this, sounds like ops community could use it too.

There are actually articles about this problem in the regular media. People at this stage would downsize but there aren't enough properties that meet their needs so they stay put. That makes these houses unattainable for the young families

I think op is trying to say how can we (1) change the culture (2) develop appealing options, so houses become available.

amother

Burgundy ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 4:58 am

amother Brunette wrote:

I'm seeing elderly parents sell their houses and move in with children who build additions. It gets complicated when the move is out of state.

↑ Chayalle

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:09 am

amother Vermilion wrote:

Oh we young people definitely talk about it.
The older generation are not affected by it…some of them own several buildings in our neighborhoods. The market has just become crazy. All young families suffer from it, also the non Jewish ones. They all takke move away from Zurich, we however can’t because we have to be in walking distance of a shul. We need jewish schools and kosher stores in our area.

I have quite a few relatives in Zurich...young people who started off in Israel and then moved back, so they must have done so with a cheshbon.....if enough people move to another area, you can have a minyan no? Can't children be bussed to school? I live no where near my DD's school in Lakewood (I used to joke that I'm sending her for high school to the Chassidish school, which would have been very convenient for me....)

amother

Wheat ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 5:10 am

I think many cities have this problem.

My friend's parents took their house, split it into two (apartment and rest of house) and sold the bigger part to their married daughter. The parents are relatively young now so can help with kids, but as they get older they will have live in help.

Obviously you need an excellent relationship to make this work.

My parents live in a frum community with housing problems. They live in a very big house and are reaching the stage that they can't really host anymore. They either go to their kids for yom tov are have very simple yomim tovim alone. If we go to visit, we cook for them.

My mother would love to divide the house and rent part of it to a young family, or move to a smaller house with less stairs, but my father absolutely refuses to think about it.

amother

↑ Cognac

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:10 am

amother Tanzanite wrote:

Yeah it almost seemed like people put words into her mouth, I didn't see her write that either.

Her issue isn't only in Zurich. It's everywhere. It's very relatable. We don't have to agree with her "solution" but we can empathize with her plight.

amother

↑ Rose

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:17 am

amother Tanzanite wrote:

And how is their moving out of Flatbush helping anybody? They are only motivated to downsize because of the extra money they will get from selling their home. The houses are still unaffordable - and not enough. Bh frum families are growing exponentially and they will iyh need more housing than that.

amother

↑ Wheat ↓

Wed, Aug 28 2024, 6:54 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm in my upper 40's. I only moved to my house a few years ago, and no, I have no intentions of moving out (unless Mashiach comes - then I'll be glad to!) in the next 10 years, to make way for the younger set. Many people save up for years to buy a more spacious home, and the golden years is when they enjoy it, even though their needs are in some ways less and they might not need so much space on a daily basis.

And yeah, I don't see moving all my kids in, so it wouldn't solve much of anything....what they need to do (and are doing) is looking farther afield. I don't love that they probably won't live within a short drive as their families grow IYH, but that's life. My neighborhood is already not affordable for them at all.

In my upper 40s too and hoping to buy a house soon. Looking at my parents and how stuck they are in their huge house, thinking of buying a house that can be easily split into 2 or 3 parts. In the next 20-30 years we will be able to host our married kids for yom tov comfortably. If we need to we can rent out the apartments on airbnb and similar to make extra income when not being used by our kids.

In the long term we can live in the ground floor apartment and rent out the rest of the house - either to our own kids or someone else.