Tisha beav camp price gouging

↑ flowerpower ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 10:43 am

amother Red wrote:

You're putting in the $40. most parents aren't, so the kids need to cover their costs, which is sometimes a lot. The kids go all out on activities and projects

Why do they need to go all out??? Supplies doesn’t need to be costly if you’re creative. Playing certain games are free…. I personally would rather get my kids a few new crafts than overspend on entertainment run by littles.

amother

Winterberry ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 10:47 am

The problem is not the charge. It's the ridiculous amounts.

My girls are making a camp for 4 hours for $18/kid and they will come out iyH with over $100 each which is a TON but they need to feel it's worth their time and energy when they're fasting.

The issue is young girls who aren't even fasting charging $60-80 per kid. That's not normal. They need to make $600 off of desperate fasting mothers??

↑ watergirl ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:14 am

amother Winterberry wrote:

Hang on. You are putting all of the blame no the kids and zero on these desperate mothers.

First - they had an entire year's notice before this fast day. They had all of that time to come up with something else, better, cheaper. They did not, and now they are desperate. Blame the teens making the camps? Sure, it's easier than saying, goodness I really missed the boat on this one, now I have to pay a premium.

Second - if you still want to blame someone, blame the parents of these kids, not the kids. It's the parents who allowed them to charge this much. It's them who said sure, go ahead. Blame their schools and chinuch that gave them the idea that they are entitled to charge this much. Blame the community for having high standards that breeds kids with high standards who want mooseknuckles and try to come up with a way to pay for it. Blame whoever, but spread the blame around.

amother

↑ Forsythia

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:17 am

For the sake of the chinuch of my child I would not have the mindset of “it’s fair to make a profit”.

At eleven years old a child doesn’t need an income or source of one. And at that age I would prefer to instill in her a sense of kindness to others. I would allow her to make a bit (and for eleven year olds $10 at the end of the day is great!).

There will be plenty of time for her to learn about making profit.

The focus would be very little talk about money and much more about how incredible it is that she is offering this opportunity to parents.

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:30 am

ora_43 wrote:

I think helping parents on fast days is a big and important chessed. But the fact that it's a chessed doesn't mean it's wrong to charge.

Doing makeup for free for poor kallahs is an amazing chessed; that doesn't mean a makeup artist who charges high prices is a jerk. Sending food to women who just gave birth is a chessed, but there's nothing wrong with restaurants charging money, even of women who just gave birth.

The problem isn't that there are kids charging money, it's that there's no help for people without money.

It’s comparable to a business delivering food charging more $ when it’s for a kimpeturin, or like airlines charging more $ for a bereavement flight , or if a sheital macher would charge double for the month before yom tov. No one is saying don’t charge $ for something that can be a chessed. People are saying maybe charge a reasonable rate .

↑ notshanarishona ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:34 am

watergirl wrote:

Refuah shlemah!!

My question is, why does chessed have to come in here at all?

Entrepreneurship is someone seeing a need and meeting it while making money.

These kids are young entrepreneurs. They see a need and a way to fill it and make money. It's not about chessed. If a chessed org wants to open a camp on 9Av, great! THEN it's about chessed!

As an aside, I would love to see a venn diagram of the kids who open these camps contrasting with kids who have to pay for their own stuff/extras (aside from clothing etc) vs. the kids who get the extras they want. My kids save up their birthday and chanukah gelt and buy extras, they have friends who get the extras as the gift itself. My son saved money to buy a Nintendo Switch, he has many friends who got one stam. That kind of thing.

I would hazard a guess that the kids who are trying to make money are not the ones who's parents will buy them the trendy and expensive hoodie that they really don't need, or the cute tote bag, or the older girl who wants the fancy watch, etc.

In other words, these are hard working kids!

Because Tisha Be’av is of the hardest fast days, it’s the longest and hot outside. There is very little for kids to do. It’s a time when many mothers are desperate for a break, not feeling well, and pushing themselves past their limits . It shouldn’t be this major unaffordable luxury to get childcare for a couple hours in my opinion.

↑ watergirl

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:40 am

notshanarishona wrote:

There are options. If you want the luxury option (sending the kids out for someone else to deal with), it will cost. If you want cheaper, you can do one of the suggestions I mentioned in this thread.

amother

↑ Stonewash ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:40 am

notshanarishona wrote:

No one is demanding chesed, we are asking parents to consider not having their child charge 3-5x as much as they normally charge on a day where most mothers are physically exhausted, not feeling welcome, and can really use a break.

A one time camp is much much harder than routine. Kids cry, it’s-a new experience. There’s no set routine… for sure worth much more, it’s exhausting to do this.
The girls come home exhausted, takes at least another day or two to recover.

amother

↑ Mistyrose ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:41 am

notshanarishona wrote:

No, it's comparable to charging more for a one-off catering order than for a standing weekly catering order. It is totally normal for vendors to charge more for a one-time service than for an ongoing one. The effort to set up and take down a camp or daycare is much less when spread across, say, two weeks, than just for one day.

amother

↑ Stonewash

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 11:43 am

notshanarishona wrote:

(The price is high bc a one time thing is harder. Not bc people are desperate. And who says kids MUST be sent out on tisha b’av? A bereavement flight is a necessity!)

I’m assuming you feel the same outrage for divorce lawyers who work with an abused woman. And for doctors where the deductible hasn’t been met and is in the high thousands range.
Many of these kids charging these prices are using it for things their parents can’t buy them, their need isn’t necessarily less than that of the lawyer or doctor.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 12:37 pm

I do think that for some people, help on Tisha B'av isn't a luxury.

OTOH if it's a true community need, it shouldn't be resting on the shoulders of 11-year-old girls. We should all be doing it. Children who aren't quite fasting yet and who like little kids can certainly be encouraged to help. But it doesn't make sense to be like 'how DARE that 11-year-old charge money' but at the same time if a grown woman with no toddlers chooses not to invite toddlers into her home and watch them for free, nobody would think twice about it.

amother

↑ Red ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 12:47 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Most women have a husband who can and should take a few hours, or a neighbor they can trade with. If that doesn't work for you, and you think the camps are overpriced, you can try seeing if your cleaning lady or her friend have a few extra hours to give you to watch your kids- but then you're not getting the programing you're paying the girls for

↑ ora_43

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 12:47 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Those first two things are totally different. They aren't charging specific people more because they are desperate, they aren't saying "bad fasters pay extra." They're charging a flat rate, same service for everyone.

The third is arguably similar, but also a lot less bad.

Ultimately I think that if someone is just being greedy the market will take care of it. If the little 11-year-old entrepreneur charging $60/kid is meeting an actual need - if she's providing super fancy activities and some parents want that, or if there are enough rich people in the community who think it sounds reasonable - then her camp will work. If nobody else is interested in working as a babysitter for that kind of money, it will work.

OTOH if $15 per kid per hour will give her more money than an 11-year-old could possibly need, some other enterprising 11-year-old will be like "heyy, wait, I could charge $10 per kid per hour and still come away with tons of money."

amother

↑ Red ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 12:49 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Yes, but 11 year olds don't have the experience to figure all that out so they throw money at the problem instead. Honestly, I keep my kids home and also just throw money at the problem with lots of extra crafts.

amother

Iris ↓

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 12:55 pm

My girls are making a camp.
One is charging $35 for 3 and half hours.(she's only taking 10 kids and will have to pay an assistant. )
The other one is doing $40 but siblings discount is $30 for 4h offering snacks and supper. She's doing it with a friend, they're both 15 yrs old.
They're both fasting and super responsible and capable. They have experience working in camps.
The only reason they are working on a fast day is to make money!! It's a very hard job.
I don't think it's a crazy price, they deserve it!
I've never sent to Tisha bav day camp when my kids were little because I couldn't afford it. Supply and demand!
(If someone called and say I'm expecting / in sick and I want to fast but I can't afford full price, they probably would give a discount!)

amother

Green

Thu, Aug 08 2024, 1:13 pm

Everyone is allowed to charge whatever they want. No one is forcing you to pay this much.
There are plenty of kids doing it for cheaper.
My son is making a Tisha bav camp and he’s charging under $10 per child for 3 hours. He knows it’s a chesed and not for profit. The money is covering snacks and 1-2 crafts.
The flyer says snacks provided.
The rest of the activities are cheap or free.
For example he’s putting up a short play and using costumes we have in the house.