Explaining legal names to kids

amother

↑ Apricot

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 3:19 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Saying that Yosef HaTzaddik (Tzafnat Poneach) or Esther HaMalka did anything out of fear is really not respectful..Both lived their lives with true Bitachon in Hashem that we cant possibly begin to touch. Both kept secular names when in contact with officials. It was the tradition in those days. I dont think it was out of fear.

Rereading my post, I never wrote fear. And interpreting it that way is just your spin.

What is your source for saying these Tzaddikim and Tzaddikot had secular names out of fear?

It's irrelevant whether they experienced fear or not. The facts are that they were hiding their identities.

Elfrida

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 5:41 am

Whether you're calling it English and Hebrew names, or Jewish and legal names, for a four year old to be called by a name that she is unfamiliar with is disturbing.

My mother had four English names, and generally went went by the second one. When she was in hospital I heard the staff handing over the shift saying that this room is Mirabel*, who prefers to be known as Vicky*. I knew all my mothers names but it was still very jarring to hear that.

To four year old, who ot seems has never heard her legal name before, it's shaking her identity. If you give your child two different names, for whatever reason, make sure they are familiar with both of them, right from the beginning

amother

Chestnut

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 6:29 am

OP, please reassure your daughter that she is Jewish and that we are proud of who we are. You might want to show her a driver's license or a paper that has someone's English name so she understands how people use them. My family always gave English and Hebrew names and many times the kids were known by the English names. However, people called their children by both English names, which was a vestige of the Hebrew (or Yiddish) name. For example, instead of Masha Leah, a girl was known as Marcia Lee and instead of Mendel Dovid, a boy was known as Mark David. I gave my kids English names that were close or identical to Hebrew, so that they would have options in the work world.

DrMom

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 7:55 am

amother OP wrote:

Shepherd/Shep is actually pretty popular with the WASP set where we live.

There are several reasons : 1) like I mentioned, he has a very Jewish name with no nickname and it drives him insane to have people constantly mispronouncing it or commenting on it. He gives my name for orders and such.
2) fear of antisemitism/holocaust trauma.” They can’t round up your kids if they can’t tell they’re Jewish on the paperwork” kind of thing. He says this is a Chofetz Chaim thing and several friends did it as well, but I’m not from a Chofetz Chaim background so I can’t confirm.
3) We didn’t want to give their Hebrew names and then give a totally separate Hebrew name as the English name. Both kids’ first Hebrew names are from his family and their second Hebrew names are ones that I chose for the meaning, so picking a Hebrew name like David, Sara, etc. just because it sounded good in English wasn’t really an option.

Well if those are the treasons why you gave your kids legal names that differed from their Hebrew names, then say that (although I'd skip #2 if your kids are very young).

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 8:25 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I never said they did anything out of fear either. One can be cognizant of their safety and do something out of understanding that it's safer that way. Like Avraham hiding Sarah in the box.

What's your source that the only reason Yosef and Esther had different names when in the palace was purely a matter of convenience when dealing with officials? And many other people had contact with officials, why don't we see them all having different names too? Yaakov went to visit Paroh, why don't we see him using a different name? Why didn't Mordechai?

amother

Strawberry ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 8:30 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

What's your source that the only reason Yosef and Esther had different names when in the palace was purely a matter of convenience when dealing with officials? And many other people had contact with officials, why don't we see them all having different names too? Yaakov went to visit Paroh, why don't we see him using a different name? Why didn't Mordechai?

We don't know Mordechai's Hebrew name. The word Mordechai has no Hebrew roots. It is after the Babylonian god Marduck. The same as Esther is from the goddess Istahar.

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 8:50 am

I get why people do this. I have two names because my parents did- and it actually became a royal pain at some points in life- but I get it. I also agree that it's very confusing and can be embarrassing for young kids- in school we used to joke about esch other's English names when we were younger, names that in retrospect are completely normal but seemed bizarre.

Please keep in mind, particularly for young kids, that they learn in school that the Bnei Yisrael got saved from Mitzrayim because they didn't change three things, including names. They will not get the subtleties of why this is different. Since your dh is saying this comes down from how and where he learned or the kehillah he is/was a part of, please share this with him, that since you didn't grow uo this way you are a bit lost on how to talk to the kids about it, and have him ask for guidance from his rav on how to talk to them.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 9:42 am

amother Strawberry wrote:

We don't know Mordechai's Hebrew name. The word Mordechai has no Hebrew roots. It is after the Babylonian god Marduck. The same as Esther is from the goddess Istahar.

Hmm I learned it's from "hidden": the three letter root of Esther in Hebrew is סתר‎, "hide, conceal".

amother

↑ Strawberry ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 9:48 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

Hmm I learned it's from "hidden": the three letter root of Esther in Hebrew is סתר‎, "hide, conceal".

Yes. That was put together after the event, when Chazal were trying to find a reference in tbe Torah, to justify her inclusion in Tanach. There's nothing to prevent a name having meanings in more than one language.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 9:56 am

amother Strawberry wrote:

How do you know it was not the other way around? That she was given the name Esther for hidden and the secular world decided it was for Ishtar?

amother

↑ Strawberry ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:01 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

How do you know it was not the other way around? That she was given the name Esther for hidden and the secular world decided it was for Ishtar?

Because her original name is Hadassah.

הדסה, היא אסתר

Her name is Hadassah, she is known in public as Ester. There is no reference to this ever being used as a name before. It was a socially accepted name, with a Jewish reference which they may have been aware of at the time, or may have been teased out later. If Chazal had to spend time discussing it, it wasn't obvious.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:03 am

amother Strawberry wrote:

Yes but why does that mean it came from Ishtar? Almost every name in Tanach is used for the first time when we first see it, so do we suspect that every name that we have no record of it being a name previously comes from a secular source?

amother

↑ Strawberry ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:17 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

It's from a very late period in Tanach, just before the building of Bayit Sheni, when they had been in exile in Bavel for close to seventy years. There are very few new names being used at that period. Ester and Mordechai have two of the most obvious new names - and they are both closely related to Babylonian gods.

We have the neat little saying of Chazal
אסתר מן התורה מניין? ואני הסתיר אסתיר פניך ביום ההוא.
Do you think that a little, ten word statement was all that it took to settle it? They had long debates about it, and whether her book was worthy of being included in Tanach. They had to find the reference that we are all so familiar with. It wasn't at all obvious at the time.

Why is this such a hard concept? Moshe Rabbeinu had an Egyptian name. According g to the midrah, it was arranged that the word mosheh in Hebrew and Egyptian would have the same meaning. That wasn't Batya's priority when she drew him from the water.

amother

↑ Honeysuckle ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:34 am

amother Strawberry wrote:

There are very few Jewish names mentioned in the megillah whatsoever, so how do we know which names are new? How do we know that 5 people before Mordechai were not named Mordechai as well, we have so little information about that age. In fact, the vast, vast majority of people throughout history never had their name logged anywhere, we don't even know all the names that were being used. For all we know before Dovid Hamelech came along there were 1000 other people already named Dovid, he's just the only one important enough to make it into Tanach.

You could say it the other way around just as easily. Esther was given the name Esther since it comes from hidden, and to help her hide it Hashem arranged that there should be a Babylonian goddess named Ishtar to help it sound realistic among the palace staff.

amother

↑ Strawberry ↓

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:38 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

You can say what you like, but I'm referring to what Chazal have said. I consider then to have far more authority on tbe subject.

amother

↑ Strawberry

Fri, Jul 26 2024, 10:42 am

amother Honeysuckle wrote:

Can you be more clear? Where did they say that Ishtar was first and "hidden" came second?

It's just over an hour until candle lighting. If you can't find the references for yourself, I'll look it up for you on motzei Shabbos.

In the meantime, think about this. You were taught at the age of seven that אסתר comes from סתר, so that is the only possible explanation. No one, not even your seminary teachers, said anything about the name מרדכי, which has no Hebrew shoresh. It doesn't seem to bother you nearly so much when I point out that his name came from the Babylonian god Marduck. So why is it such an issue that Ester has a similar origin?