New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:15 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

So you suggest a DL lifestyle, am I correct? Yes or no?

No. Being DL is an ideology. I'm not suggesting that this guy we're discussing who identifies as chareidi but has a hard time learning all day should become DL. I'm saying he should be a chareidi working man, who serves in the army, works, is kovea itim. Sends his kids to chareidi schools and follows chareidi rabbanim. Lives in a chareidi community. Has a chareidi outlook. Chareidi.

↑ someone ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 2:16 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Same things changed but the mission of re-education of IDF is the same today and in the past.
You can create 100 new chareidi units and change XYZ but the goal of re-education will never change.

Could you give us examples of how this goal is expressed in the army today?

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:13 pm

someone wrote:

This is a really nice idea. It works well in chul. Not so well in Israel.
In chul there are a lot of chareidi men who are educated professionals, work, have jobs, and are seriously kovea ittim. They send their kids to chareidi schools and follow chareidi rabbanim. In Israel if you’re fully chareidi, society expects you to learn full time. If you find yourself at a chareidi male doctor in Israel, you can be sure he’s an oleh from chul or he’s a bt.
This dream of a chareidi guy with a chareidi outlook going to the army flies up against a lot of resistance in Israel. Chareidi society is very slowly changing but for the most part they still thinking working and going to the army are for other people. Changing this is going to take time and a lot of work, and it’s work that hardly anyone seems interested in doing.
Tuesday night two IDF officers met with a chareidi Rav in Bne Brak to work out how to set up a fully chareidi division. When they left their car was surrounded by a mob yelling rotzeach (murderer), namut velo nitgayess (we’ll die but won’t enlist) and la’kelle velo la’tzava (to jail not to the army). It’s going to be rough trying to get a chareidi style chutznik in Israel.

nylon

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 3:46 pm

I haven't read all 18 pages but everyone assumes when someone goes into the army and comes out different religiously that it must have been the army's fault and based on what I have seen I don't think it is so simple. For some people yes. For others, they choose the path they do because they already are thinking that way. Certainly for DL men there's many paths to stay frum. I don't think you can look at someone who went to hesder and came out datlash and say that it was hesder's fault. Or maybe he chooses regular service instead: Maybe he was already prioritizing what he wanted out of his service over religious observance. If someone decides that the most important thing to him is to join Sayeret Matkal or the paratroopers, regardless of what it costs him religiously, is the army "making him" not be religious? There are sherut leumi girls who become datlash too.

Not saying that experiences don't matter at all or there are zero challenges but I think people are really oversimplifying. Also, whatever may be the case in the world at large, I don't think anyone on imamother is really leftist. At best they are "left for DL" which is not very left in my experience.

amother

Thistle ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 5:29 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

chareidim dont see this as a milchemes mitzvah..

if you dont understand this, then there is a complete ideological gap here that you're missing and will never come to a solution.
the point is to UNDERSTANT where the other side is coming from.

sitting here typing emotional, pain filled posts about how awful and lacking you think chareidim are and how terrible and evil their gedolim are... isnt painting some of you in the best light either.

this is a VERY nuanced issue and its NOT black and white.

but the first step is to appreciate the positions of BOTH sides and realize that ultimately we are on the same team.

Didn't read the subsequent pages but just had to say,
THEN CHAREIDIM ARE WRONG

amother

↑ Thistle

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 5:33 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The IDF isn't accommodating towards chareidim. Haven't been and will never be.
My FIL served in IDF and was in army prison since he refused to be mechallel Shabbos when there's was no pikuach nefesh.
After that he was absolutely hellbent none of his sons should serve after what her experienced.
This is the experience of many older chareidim who fought in 1948-49, not just my FIL ע"ה.
Now you understand?

No, because that was a different generation.

amother

Vanilla

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 6:59 pm

Reality wrote:

There is one chareidi Hesder yeshiva. It is a wonderful, pilot program. Why can't there be more like that?

There are two new charedi yeshivos opening in Elul, one is advertising itself as a hesder yeshiva and one that is a yeshiva that will work with the army.

While Derech Chaim (the existing chareidi hesder program) is specifically for chareidim to serve in intelligence/computer units, at least one of these new yeshivas seems to be preparing the boys for combat.
https://mishmar-hatora.co.il/
https://www.tbyeshiva.org.il/

I have no inside information, just saw their ads.

Unfortunately, this thread has been very disheartening due to the lack of communication between sides.

I hear one side saying (primarily) let the chareidi boys who aren't super serious learners, but rather spend some or limited time in yeshiva, be drafted.

And the other side saying either
a. You don't understand how valuable limud Torah is. I believe this argument is irrelevant as the first side is saying that those who are not invested in seriously, properly, learning full time should be drafted. Not those who will be learning throughout bein hazmanim because they understand how important their learning is for the protection of Eretz Yisrael and the Jewish people

b. The army is going to corrupt these boys who are not serious learners, so it should not be allowed under any circumstances. In response to this argument, generally going to a chareidi unit will mitigate the risk, and certainly going to a chareidi hesder unit will.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 10:18 pm

Reality wrote:

Not necessarily true. Their parents are busy running around getting them fake mental health pturs instead.

I wouldn't call them fake. Most of those kids are suicidal, depressed, have anxiety. Do you know how many suicides there have been from RBS teens in the last few years? Unfortunately not a few. Drugs, alcohol, addiction etc.

I have friends and family who were/are still part of that scene, and I'd say the vast majority are not exactly the people the army wants and would not have an issue getting a ptur.

↑ Reality ↓

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 10:49 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

This has nothing to do with a specific city. Why do posters keep on assuming this is only happening in RBS. No, it's happening in Yerushalayim, in Bnei Brak, in Beitar etc.

Again, I am not talking about people who struggle with mental health. There's another group of boys I'm talking about. Normal, healthy boys who don't or can't learn all day. I know a bunch from many different cities in Israel. Some are studying abroad, some are in vocational school in Israel, some are in university in Israel. One boy I know is studying to be a lawyer.

Some remain chareidi and some are barely religious anymore without ever stepping foot in the IDF.

I know for a fact their parents work like crazy to get their sons FAKE mental health pturs and then they go on their merry way doing whatever they want. Why can't those boys serve?

↑ heidi

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 10:58 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

That's not what I've claimed.
I've said the IDF doesn't and cant accommodate tnaim for chareidim.
I'm not qualified to specify in detail exactly if yechida X or Y has chareidim accommodated things.
The foundation and values of chareidim are well known. Torah and mitzvot.

As opposed to the foundation and values of Daati Leumi which is eating pork and driving on shabbat?
Do none of you actually see how belittling and insulting you are to a huge segment of the Orthodox population in Israel?
Do your charedi newspapers and internet new sites not show you pictures of dead soldiers? With long payot and wives covering every strand of their hair?
I personally think every single soldier who serves is kadosh.
But even by your narrowminded standards aren't there enough "FRUM" soldiers serving and dying to make you understand that we are fighting for the very existence of Israel?
Secular- as in the times of the Chashmonaim was good enough then
Our dor is certainly not any holier than they are
Why do you think you are above us??????

↑ Another mom

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 11:23 pm

Speaking of Frum soldiers, I have the sad news that Sanguine's (MIchal Knoller z"l) son Nadav fell in battle 2 weeks ago in Aza... And, today, 12 Tamuz is her Yuhrzeit. Crying

I should start a spinoff with more details. SO...... let's respect all the soldiers, yes, they are "Frum" and died on Kiddush Hashem. So so sad. Such a gibor/ ה' יקום דמו Crying

And yes, of course it's Milchemet Mitzva unless we are talking about a war saving non-Jews. We all agree that this is NOT the case!

amother

↑ Firethorn

Thu, Jul 18 2024, 11:41 pm

Just as food for thought. This is an article in the British, non-Jewish newspaper The Guardian.
It is about the fear of the Israeli secular Left about Dati Leumi ideology and people taking over the secular Israeli army. Because there are so many of them and they are rising though the ranks and have a frum agenda.

Why can't the chareidim see this chance? You can influence and change the army by being there in big numbers. Be the change you want to see.

https://amp.theguardian.com/wo.....elite

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Fri, Jul 19 2024, 12:18 am

heidi wrote:

Where have I said that ONLY chareidim are frum?

↑ Reality ↓

Fri, Jul 19 2024, 12:28 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Where have I said that ONLY chareidim are frum?

This entire thread has that tone, it has been pointed out multiple times. The OP's title for example, "frum" olim families having problems with the change in draft laws. Boker tov, not all frum olim families have this problem, only one sector. We pointed out to you in particular many times, listing the 3 denominations of Judaism as chareidi, conservative and reform is incredibly rude and insulting, tone deaf and most importantly, patently false.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Fri, Jul 19 2024, 12:30 am

someone wrote:

There are plenty of working chareidim. Plenty.