New draft and frum families making aliyah

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:10 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Not every family takes benefits. Think uYoel Kreuzer and shomrei Emunim.
Reduced arnona: depends where you live. I don't think every city gives this.
Kitzbat yeladim: has nothing to do with army service. Every kid is entitled regardless of army service or not!
Sorry but you seem to think chareidim don't have a free will.

Honestly that a minority. Everyone I know gets discounts for arnonah, gets student bus passes, other free money for low income, food stamps during covid, etc. They get funding for schools, yeshiva, discounts on maon, etc. They get paid a stipend through the gov for learning.

Part of it is our countries fault too. I still am scratching my head why those who aren't citizens get disability stipends and other financial incentives. Both American chareidim that are on visas and Arabs in the west bank or those who are clearly anti Israel.

Last edited by LovesHashem on Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ essie14 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:11 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

If they have so much free will why doesn't their leadership allow them to serve in the army and decide for themselves how strongly they want to remain chareidi?
Why is the argument constantly being made that "it threatens their ability to stay chareidi"?

↑ Reality ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:11 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

How about mechir mishtaken? They literally have a separate category for chareidi neighborhoods.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:13 am

someone wrote:

They didn't try harder in the past because they didn't think they actually needed the chareidim. It was all politics and פוזיציה. They thought they needed a small army, so they didn't need chareidim or the hassle that drafting them would be. But now the situation has changed. The whole צבא קטן וחכם idea collapsed, and we have lost thousands of soldiers (some killed and some injured and can't go back to combat). We mamash need more soldiers, fast. So they are trying to actually make it work. The problem is
a. They cried wolf for so long and said they wanted chareidim when they didn't that no one believes them now.
b. The same people who have been campaigning about this (Yair Lapid and his ilk, אחים לנשק etc.) are carrying on with the same rhetoric, which makes it feel like nothing has changed.

The concept of small army has only been around ten years, not more.
Believe me, chareidi youth aged 18-21 aren't going to be the salvation and saviout to Israels problems. There is a shortage of some sectors in IDF but most of all there us a huge surplus of other sectors. You think chareidim is the answer to the problem? I don't think so.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:14 am

I forgot about rent subsidy. I've been to the office a few times, as we apply for disability since I'm autistic and everyone there was chareidi and chassidish. The type of men who looked down to the floor as a passed, and actively tried to stand at least five feet away from me.

Beit Shemesh is an 80% arnonah discount rate and they come to chareidi neighborhoods to help them with signing up. Beit Shemesh is like 60%-70% chareidi so yes they are taking discounts.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:15 am

amother OP wrote:

Can’t believe that’s true for everyone

And no I’m reconsidering accepting any assistance if that comes chained to sending my sons to the army.

I have my priorities

Interesting perspective.

I’m an American we have no concept of all of this it’s a foreign concept

This is why I strongly recommend that you look at this whole sugya with an open mind. Don't fall into the hyperbole of "you have to choose between being frum and being in the army" - it's simply untrue.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:16 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I think there's a lot of issues in the army, honestly based on the reports I'm hearing I'd be angry to send my husband in a way. Angry because I know people are dying because lefties are being too careful with pulling the trigger and there's completely disorganization in certain sectors.

Angry that lives are being lost that feel to me as if they shouldn't have been. I know Hashem is in charge but it's so hard for me to see that.

I don't think chareidim are the solution at all, and it upsets me this stuff won't be resolved. But I do thing regardless we need to start pulling our weight there too. At the very least with those who aren't learning that hard or working etc.

But so many applied voluntarily post October 7th and most of them were rejected so I really don't know what the solution is

Last edited by LovesHashem on Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:18 am; edited 3 times in total

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:16 am

Reality wrote:

How about mechir mishtaken? They literally have a separate category for chareidi neighborhoods.

Mechir mishtaken is being built for bon-rnon-religious sectors too! It's not ONLY for chareidim!
And if course there are separate neighborhood for chareidim. Why is that even an issue for you?

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:18 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Mechir mishtaken is being built for bon-rnon-religious sectors too! It's not ONLY for chareidim!
And if course there are separate neighborhood for chareidim. Why is that even an issue for you?

She's saying that it's a subsidized program through the government, which means if you join it you are taking free money from the government

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:19 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Fine
That doesn't mean every city in israel gives out hefty discounts to chareidim. Far from.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:19 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Right, around 10 years, but even before they officially started slimming down the army they didn't think they needed to expand the giyus. Combine it with the fact that the chareidi proportion of the population has been growing steadily.
There is a shortage of combat soldiers. Why can't chareidim solve that problem?

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:21 am

LovesHashem wrote:

That report went around but I heard from people who are involved in the highest levels of Netzach Yehuda that the people who were rejected were too old, it was people in their 30s and 40s and even older who wanted to do shlav bet.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:22 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Fine
That doesn't mean every city in israel gives out hefty discounts to chareidim. Far from.

Even if they give 30% to low income families and chareidim apply, they are taking money from the gov. You say they don't take money from the gov, they definitely do.

It's illegal to discriminate based on what level of religion you're on, it goes by income. Subsidies have higher subsidies for low income than others but all of them pretty much have some level of discount for low income people.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:22 am

LovesHashem wrote:

She's saying that it's a subsidized program through the government, which means if you join it you are taking free money from the government

I get bituach leumi for disability. So what?
If it doesn't exclude chareidim then why should one abstain? It has nothing to do with army service.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:23 am

someone wrote:

I don't understand why they couldn't have been cooked or helped organize equipment. Isn't half of the army positions no combat?

People of that age are professions many with incredible experience. I read that some of them were engineers, programmers, cybersecurity, mechanics or other specialty fields that are needed.

↑ shabbatiscoming ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:24 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Fine
That doesn't mean every city in israel gives out hefty discounts to chareidim. Far from.

That wasnt the point. The point was any hanacha is taking from the governmrnt.

↑ Bnei Berak 10 ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:26 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I can't vouch for shomrei emunim and others who are totally anti zionist.
I get bituach leumi. I am entitled to it. And yes, as I worked in the past I paid income tax. No, I didn't do army service, I was too old when I came here.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:26 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

I get bituach leumi for disability. So what?
If it doesn't exclude chareidim then why should one abstain? It has nothing to do with army service.

I'm not sure if it was you or a different poster, but somebody said that most chareidim won't take money from the government.

Thats what we're discussing. If people do or should take the benefits of a country without willing to take all the responsibility of it like army service.

↑ someone ↓

Wed, Jul 17 2024, 11:26 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Good question. I don't remember, I saw an interview with the mankal of Netzach Yehuda about it but I don't remember what he said. In general the army is not the most organized infrastructure and isn't the best at taking advantage of the resources it has.
As you said, there are many many problems in the army. On lots of different levels. I don't think anyone says it is. But this is the army we have right now. The question is if we sit on the sidelines and say "call me when it's all perfect and I'll consider it" or if we try and change from the inside, and give whatever we can, because even if the army isn't perfect, it's the tool Hashem has given us in this generation to protect ourselves.