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-> Parenting our children
-> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)
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CPenzias
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 Fri, Jul 12 2024, 5:45 am
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Op, your doctor should ask the teachers to fill out a survey too. One on one is so different than in a class setting
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Brit in Israel
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 6:13 am
| jerusalem613 wrote: | OP here.
Thank you so much everyone for your replies. Very insightful and informative.
Based on your replies seems that Israel, where we live, is backwards in regards of treatment and diagnostics.
We took our son to a local children's psychiatrist who after interacting with ds and quizzing him and so forth felt he does not require any medication.
On the other hand, DS's rebbes over the years have repeatedly said that "he suffers" in class and is unable to stay still or concentrate.
DS is happy to go to school, never complains of any sufferings, might have a higher then average imagination, friendly, outgoing and self confident.
I would love to message the 2nd poster who said she works with ADHD children and ask some questions.
We obviously want to do the right thing and are open to the idea of medication, but just feel lost as to what path to follow...
Any advice as to where I can get a 2nd opinion ? |
Israel is actually one of the quickest places to diagnose and help.
When you took your child, did they have the forms from the school?
Class settings is very different and can be the only place inattentive ADHD shows up.
Take your child to a neurologist, they are covered by all Kuppahs and have a form or letter from the school.
Hatzlocha!
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amother
Mistyrose
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 6:43 am
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If teacher reports were not part of the evaluation, then it's not worth the paper it's written on. You need to redo it, properly, with teachers included (they should be given forms to fill out). Schools should never be recommending medication, it's beyond the scope of their training, but clearly something is going on here, and you need to figure out what. If he's that disruptive, it's unfair to the teachers, the classmates, and to him as well. You can't just throw up your hands and say well he's fine at home and we don't like the idea of meds. It may be he doesn't need them, but you need a plan and other supports in place, because the status quo is not working.
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AlwaysGrateful
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 8:03 am
As someone who is very pro-medicating for ADHD, who has kids on meds and has recently started meds herself...I think that you need to need "meds" out of the question and take a step back.
Sure, it's possible that your son has ADHD. It's also possible that he has a learning disability, or hypersensitivies, or some sort of anxiety, or none of these. If this were my son, here's what I'd do:
*Have a meeting with my son's teachers. His rebbe, English teachers, maybe a principal or anyone else in the school that you think would have some insight. Ask them to describe exactly what behaviors your son is showing that they're concerned about. Ask them to describe exactly WHEN these behaviors happen. Do they happen at a specific time of day? During a specific activity? When they're no structure/more structure than usual? Do they notice any triggers that lead to this behavior?
*Discuss with your son, in depth, what he feels about what is going on. Play dumb. When X happen (whatever the teachers describe as the trigger), does it bother him? How does he feel? What does he think usually happens after X occurs?
*Keep a close eye at home for times that these triggers might occur. For example, if his rebbe says that he acts up during review games, watch to see how he acts when he's under time pressure at home, or when a bunch of people are watching him (say a dvar torah at the table or something), or when he's playing a competitive game with his siblings. If his teacher says that he gets rowdy when waiting in line for lunch, see whether he has a hard time being patient at home, or being surrounded by other people who might be touching him. Try to see if there are any patterns.
*Take this information to figure out who should be the best person to evaluate him, based on what you think causes the behaviors. Does it seem like he has a hard time focusing when he's bored? Or like he gets overwhelmed in loud environments or when he's being touched? Or when he's asked to read something? Each of these would require a different type of evaluation, ideally.
I strongly feel that catching these things early can really help a kid. They may not realize, in early elementary, just how much a specific issue is affecting them. But as time goes on, and it starts to become more obvious to them and to their peers, it can cause major issues. Better to address it at a young age.
Will the answer be medication? Maybe, or maybe not. It might even be a medication that isn't Ritalin (e.g., anxiety meds or something). Or it might be something like OT for sensory issues. Or it might just mean you working on a specific skill at home, like buying more competitive games and playing them with him to get him used to losing and teaching him how to be a good sport and not get botherd when he loses. I'm completely making things up, it could be NONE of these, but it's important to pinpoint the source rather than running to try out a med that may have nothing to do with what he's struggling with.
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amother
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 8:27 am
| Sewsew_mom wrote: | Thanks for sharing your experience.
This hurts me to hear you think this is the only way to help a child.
You are aware that there is a whole world out there of functional meds that work to heal the issue rather than mask it.
The child is struggling with something and instead of healing it there is a pharmaceutical company slapping out meds to profit and bandaid humans.
Everything is reversible.
And everyone has choices.
Yet to think you didn't have choices is sad to hear as a parent of these children.
End of the day. Ritalin is a drug. Someone is profiting. It works by numbing out parts of the brain. It's Def harmful, yet for some the alternative may be more harmful. So know your options. Know how our brains and bodies get affected by drugs. And make smart choices.
With that said. Of course teachers slap on Ritalin. A lot easier than serving healthy foods in class and teaching in appropriate settings for children to thrive.
Yes. Everyone can come out with stories how they saved their child/spouses /self. They are bandaids. Excellent to help someone temporary (if that's your way) and than work on the real issue. |
Bandaids that can leave a massive permanent scar
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CPenzias
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 8:29 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | | If teacher reports were not part of the evaluation, then it's not worth the paper it's written on. You need to redo it, properly, with teachers included (they should be given forms to fill out). Schools should never be recommending medication, it's beyond the scope of their training, but clearly something is going on here, and you need to figure out what. If he's that disruptive, it's unfair to the teachers, the classmates, and to him as well. You can't just throw up your hands and say well he's fine at home and we don't like the idea of meds. It may be he doesn't need them, but you need a plan and other supports in place, because the status quo is not working. |
This
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CPenzias
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 8:31 am
| amother Starflower wrote: | DON'T DO IT!
When I was a kid my teachers made me Go on Ritalin . my parents forced me to take it. (They actually had me evaluated by someone the school recommended bad idea he was in cahoots with the school and prescribed a huge dosage.)
Anyway I couldn't swallow it so my parents yelled at me and punished me every time it didn't go down. After a few weeks I started flushing it down the toilet all of a sudden it was amazing the difference my teachers would sing my praise to my mother not just when I was there but also when I was eavesdropping on the phone.
Please don't I have friends who were permanently affected by it one couldn't have kids as a result |
Just wow! Good for you for flushing it. Shame on your parents for making you feel awful for not being able to swallow a pill. I couldn't swallow pills till high school!
Your teachers are stupid. It was in their heads lol.
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amother
DarkPurple
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 8:56 am
| Sewsew_mom wrote: | End of the day. Ritalin is a drug. Someone is profiting. It works by numbing out parts of the brain. It's Def harmful, yet for some the alternative may be more harmful. So know your options. Know how our brains and bodies get affected by drugs. And make smart choices.
With that said. Of course teachers slap on Ritalin. A lot easier than serving healthy foods in class and teaching in appropriate settings for children to thrive. |
You don't think that people are profiting from functional medicine? Sure they are.
I'm all for serving healthy foods and teaching to various modalities. But I have ADHD (inattentive type). Wasn't diagnosed as a kid. I was just referred to as "spacy," "lazy," "irresponsible," wonderful words like that. I was extremely bright, so academics weren't an issue. I'd get 100s on my tests because the information was easy for me, but when you averaged that out with all my missing homeworks and late or missing assignments, I ended up a B+/A- student who "really needed to apply herself more." I had a loving mother who was very Type-A and couldn't understand me, but tried to help me as much as possible, so I didn't completely fall apart. I had wonderful friends who reminded me about things and tried to cover for me. But I was constantly losing everything, forgetting everything, making messes, unable to complete anything long-term no matter how much I wanted to. I felt like I was floundering through life. I tried SO HARD, but I assumed it was because I was lazy that I couldn't get my act together.
Oh, and my mother was really into healthy, clean food, for the record. My diet now is usually eggs with veggies for breakfast, a salad with nuts and a protein for lunch, and our dinner options are generally whole grains, veggies, lean proteins, things like that.
I'm now 40 and recently started taking meds. I AM IN SHOCK. I finally understand how everyone else was able to get things done. And no, it's not just because teachers need to teach better. ADHD, if you really have it, affects your entire life. It affected my ability to parent my kids in a mindful way, to be a good wife, daughter, sister...It affected my ability to attend social events, to make and keep friends, to hold down a job, to feel successful in LIFE. I didn't realize most of these things until I started taking meds and suddenly I can do these things just like everyone else can, so it wasn't like I was expecting to change in these areas. I don't appear differnet to anyone else, because I was working so hard for so many years, but now I can accomplish things without having to push myself with superhuman strength. Like I can pick up the phone and call a doctor's office to make an appointment like it's no big deal. Before, it required me to set a timer, bribe myself to do it, things like that. It got done, but it was a whole song and dance and required so much time and mental energy. Now I just pick up the phone. And call. Done. It's crazy.
So sure, ADHD meds, like any meds, can have potential side effects. That's why kids need to be monitored while on them. But major side effects like the ones you're mentioning are rare. If a kid (or adult) really needs these meds, please don't scare them away from them.
Disclaimer: I don't know if the OP's son has ADHD. It's very possible he doesn't. But something is wrong. And sure, you can try changing up his diet and trying to troubleshoot specific issues with the teacher. But if that doesn't work, and if it's determiend that he does have ADHD, leaving it untreated is irresponsible and cruel.
Getting off my soapbox now...
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marineparkmom
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 9:13 am
So meeting a neurologist or psychiatrist for one appointment is not the same as a neuropsych evaluation. A neuropsych evaluation takes a couple of days to do because it involves a lot of testing. That’s probably what the child needs. Once a child is properly diagnosed can treatment options be discussed. The fact that the child has had difficulty in school for multiple years means that the child has needs that should be addressed. A neuropsych evaluation would include teacher questionares or speaking to teachers on the phone.
The child needs a full full evaluation.
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amother
Foxglove
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 9:37 am
I didn't read through the whole thread.
I just want to say, putting him on ADHD meds is not a long term commitment. You can give it a try and give it up if you see it's not making the quality of his life better.
If you do it, do it for him, not for his teachers.
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amother
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Fri, Jul 12 2024, 12:29 pm
| ]amother Mistyrose[/color][/b][/url] wrote: | | If teacher reports were not part of the evaluation, then it's not worth the paper it's written on. You need to redo it, properly, with teachers included (they should be given forms to fill out). Schools should never be recommending medication, it's beyond the scope of their training, but clearly something is going on here, and you need to figure out what. If he's that disruptive, it's unfair to the teachers, the classmates, and to him as well. You can't just throw up your hands and say well he's fine at home and we don't like the idea of meds. It may be he doesn't need them, but you need a plan and other supports in place, because the status quo is not working. |
A good neuropsych does not really need this. This is the gold standard they actually measure executive functioned and a whole host of other things don't just base a diagnosis on reported symptoms. (Not saying they shouldn't include them just it's not really needed Ina good neuropsych)
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amother
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Sat, Jul 13 2024, 4:38 pm
| amother Starflower wrote: | DON'T DO IT!
When I was a kid my teachers made me Go on Ritalin . my parents forced me to take it. (They actually had me evaluated by someone the school recommended bad idea he was in cahoots with the school and prescribed a huge dosage.)
Anyway I couldn't swallow it so my parents yelled at me and punished me every time it didn't go down. After a few weeks I started flushing it down the toilet all of a sudden it was amazing the difference my teachers would sing my praise to my mother not just when I was there but also when I was eavesdropping on the phone.
Please don't I have friends who were permanently affected by it one couldn't have kids as a result |
Coz you had abusive parents means no one should have Ritalin??
My DD is 6 is on it, she couldn't manage to swallow with water so whilst she was taking it poured into yogurt (pharmacist idea) I researched different ways to help swallow and now she takes it with a mouthful of cereal, she chews the cereal and before swallowing puts in the pill.
There was a day she didn't want to take it so we sent it to school with her telling her if she needs it she should take it as long as it's not after first break (we didn't want her to take it at the end of the day as it's a slow-release.) she ended up taking it as soon as she saw she couldn't manage to even get through davening focused.
I'm not saying the above to toot my own horn, it's called parenting just like it's called parenting to help your child who is suffering in the school life. Unless you plan on doing alternative schooling you have to help your child fit in the system you put them in. Ritalin might not be the answer for them, it's the answer for some people but ignoring it is a lot worse and is just as bad parenting as what your parents did.
Ritalin now days is very different to what they use to give 20+ yrs ago. There is also many variations.
Not having children is definitely not because of Ritalin. Prove to me that was the only thing that effected her!
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amother
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Sun, Jul 14 2024, 1:42 pm
| amother Rainbow wrote: | Coz you had abusive parents means no one should have Ritalin??
My DD is 6 is on it, she couldn't manage to swallow with water so whilst she was taking it poured into yogurt (pharmacist idea) I researched different ways to help swallow and now she takes it with a mouthful of cereal, she chews the cereal and before swallowing puts in the pill.
There was a day she didn't want to take it so we sent it to school with her telling her if she needs it she should take it as long as it's not after first break (we didn't want her to take it at the end of the day as it's a slow-release.) she ended up taking it as soon as she saw she couldn't manage to even get through davening focused.
I'm not saying the above to toot my own horn, it's called parenting just like it's called parenting to help your child who is suffering in the school life. Unless you plan on doing alternative schooling you have to help your child fit in the system you put them in. Ritalin might not be the answer for them, it's the answer for some people but ignoring it is a lot worse and is just as bad parenting as what your parents did.
Ritalin now days is very different to what they use to give 20+ yrs ago. There is also many variations.
Not having children is definitely not because of Ritalin. Prove to me that was the only thing that effected her! |
You’re really not allowed to send medication to school with a child. What would happen if she gave the pill to a friend?
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smss
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Sun, Jul 14 2024, 2:08 pm
| amother Valerian wrote: | I feel like teachers nowadays have very low tolerance for children. Children have energy, they are young, and the teacher's job is not only to teach but to actually make them learn!
How is he at home? |
Hmm, is that it or do they have 25+ kids in a tiny classroom with no real support? 🤔
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smss
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Sun, Jul 14 2024, 2:10 pm
| AlwaysGrateful wrote: | As someone who is very pro-medicating for ADHD, who has kids on meds and has recently started meds herself...I think that you need to need "meds" out of the question and take a step back.
Sure, it's possible that your son has ADHD. It's also possible that he has a learning disability, or hypersensitivies, or some sort of anxiety, or none of these. If this were my son, here's what I'd do:
*Have a meeting with my son's teachers. His rebbe, English teachers, maybe a principal or anyone else in the school that you think would have some insight. Ask them to describe exactly what behaviors your son is showing that they're concerned about. Ask them to describe exactly WHEN these behaviors happen. Do they happen at a specific time of day? During a specific activity? When they're no structure/more structure than usual? Do they notice any triggers that lead to this behavior?
*Discuss with your son, in depth, what he feels about what is going on. Play dumb. When X happen (whatever the teachers describe as the trigger), does it bother him? How does he feel? What does he think usually happens after X occurs?
*Keep a close eye at home for times that these triggers might occur. For example, if his rebbe says that he acts up during review games, watch to see how he acts when he's under time pressure at home, or when a bunch of people are watching him (say a dvar torah at the table or something), or when he's playing a competitive game with his siblings. If his teacher says that he gets rowdy when waiting in line for lunch, see whether he has a hard time being patient at home, or being surrounded by other people who might be touching him. Try to see if there are any patterns.
*Take this information to figure out who should be the best person to evaluate him, based on what you think causes the behaviors. Does it seem like he has a hard time focusing when he's bored? Or like he gets overwhelmed in loud environments or when he's being touched? Or when he's asked to read something? Each of these would require a different type of evaluation, ideally.
I strongly feel that catching these things early can really help a kid. They may not realize, in early elementary, just how much a specific issue is affecting them. But as time goes on, and it starts to become more obvious to them and to their peers, it can cause major issues. Better to address it at a young age.
Will the answer be medication? Maybe, or maybe not. It might even be a medication that isn't Ritalin (e.g., anxiety meds or something). Or it might be something like OT for sensory issues. Or it might just mean you working on a specific skill at home, like buying more competitive games and playing them with him to get him used to losing and teaching him how to be a good sport and not get botherd when he loses. I'm completely making things up, it could be NONE of these, but it's important to pinpoint the source rather than running to try out a med that may have nothing to do with what he's struggling with. |
This is such good advice.
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Sewsew_mom
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Mon, Jul 15 2024, 8:11 am
I never ever read the Ami magazine. I had company for shabbos and I guess they brought it and left it. I'm cleaning up and I see on the front cover of the Ami living an article about adhd.
I read it. And OP I know you mentioned you are in Israel. And the teachers reports are conflicting with what you feel.
It may be worth reading.
His name is Yaakov ophir and he has an interesting story of how he got into studying adhd and what he found.
Best of luck with your decisions
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amother
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Mon, Jul 15 2024, 8:14 am
How is he socially? Does he have friends.
He does well at home. Is that alone or with peers?
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amother
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Mon, Jul 15 2024, 8:25 am
| amother Offwhite wrote: | How is he socially? Does he have friends.
He does well at home. Is that alone or with peers? |
This is the main thing does he have friends.
When the teacher says hes disrupting the class is it because he has friends and hes talking to them?
Because that's more important than getting 100s on his tests. Not everyone is capable of taking tests studying whatever. But if your kid has good people skills your good!
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amother
Yarrow
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Mon, Jul 15 2024, 8:25 am
| marineparkmom wrote: | So meeting a neurologist or psychiatrist for one appointment is not the same as a neuropsych evaluation. A neuropsych evaluation takes a couple of days to do because it involves a lot of testing. That’s probably what the child needs. Once a child is properly diagnosed can treatment options be discussed. The fact that the child has had difficulty in school for multiple years means that the child has needs that should be addressed. A neuropsych evaluation would include teacher questionares or speaking to teachers on the phone.
The child needs a full full evaluation. |
This. Evaluation by a neuropsychologist. If medication is indicated, then you got to a child psychiatrist for the prescription.
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