Appropriate response when 13 year old son hits me

amother

↑ Dandelion

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 4:30 pm

shachachti wrote:

I didn't read all the replies so maybe I'm redundant.

Op the question is what is the goal here?

Is it winning in this moment or is it having a loving relationship with him as he grows older?

I assume you'd want to have a relationship with him long term.

Based on that...

1. Are you open to hear that taking his beloved t-shirt and throwing it into a dumpster is an over reaction on your end and won't foster a relationship with this child?

2. Let's remember that he is all of 13 years old.

My own 13 year old son is basically a child that puts on tefilin and davens with minyan.
Yes he can lose himself and say and do immature things.

Check with yourself if you're not seeing your son as bigger than he actually is.

3. What he did is wrong and it cant be ignored.

But, Punishment, if at all necessary doesn't have to be impulsive.
It is much less effective if it happens in the moment.

What would have been much more effective is having him answer to what he did.

Talk to him when you're cooled off.
Ask him if he thinks it was OK to not obey?
Make the boy think!

4. He did ONE thing.
The punishment (if you believe in the helpfulness of them) has to be accordingly.

You dished out 6 harsh punishments at once.

1. Took away his beloved t-shirt
2. Threw it out for good.
3. Docked him
4. Docked him on a a special day.
5. Docked him when the family is going away.
(Oh God! That's so so harsh I don't even know who would ever advise you to do this to any child in 2024.)
6. Your husband talks mussar to him.

How can there be a long term relationship with this child after he was so gravely punished for what seems to be an impulsive immature moment?

I am not minimizing what he did.

But please have a look at your reactions and be honest if they weren't over reaction.

If you can still pull back I would really advise you to do so.

All these people telling you that you did well, please check if their adult children have a relationship with them.

So we turn more abusive teens into abusive fathers and husbands?

Tanya1234

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 4:52 pm

shachachti wrote:

Came on to write this but this is better written than I would!!

I agree with every word

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 4:59 pm

amother Raspberry wrote:

1. You say he has no social or emotional issues. When did these outbursts start? How long have they been going on? If you do nothing that he doesn't like and request nothing of him will they still happen?

2. Your punishment does not fit the crime. At all. I get you, I get where you are coming from (ask how), but this is a sign of being totally lost and not knowing how to parent this child.

3. Are any of your other kids like this, or just him? Do you discipline him differently than them because you feel so lost with him? Or is this example typical of how you discipline them all?

1. I'm not sure what the correct term is. Maybe it's an outburst. To describe it best, it's a situation where everything is fine, everyone is getting along well, and then someone will do something my son doesn't like and he immediately spirals into physically or verbally lashing out. It's reactive and impulsive. It has been going on for around a year. More than 90% of the time he's wonderful and less than 10% of the time he behaves this way. He does well in every way in school. He behaves very well all the time out of the home. He may joke around/talk in class but he stops when reprimanded. That's the extent of it.
"If you do nothing that he doesn't like and request nothing of him will they still happen?" Never.

2. Agreed, I feel totally lost. I was shocked and angry and reacted in the moment. But, even with time to think more rationally, I could not figure out the ideal response.

3. None of my other kids are like this (yet, hopefully never). My son said recently that I treat him more toughly (meaning, he gets more consequences) than the other kids. I thought about it and it's true. But he also does negative things that my other kids don't do.
"Or is this example typical of how you discipline them all?" Interesting. Perhaps. Most of the time I'm cool, calm, collected and discuss their behavior with them. But when I am so shocked or angry, I can go into reactive mode and just dole out a consequence without much thought.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 5:06 pm

amother Lemonchiffon wrote:

At the very least, it should come with a warning.
"If you do not stop spraying, I will take it away and you will have a consequence. "

I feel like taking it away puts you on the same level as the child. If a peer takes something away, it's not abnormal to react aggressively. If a person of authority takes something away, it is not appropriate to react aggressively.
You establish yourself as the person of authority in his adolescent mind by giving a warning.

Interesting. I would never have considered taking something out of his hands a physical response that could be interpreted as aggression. I am generally good about giving warnings or saying if you continue X behavior there will be a consequence but this all unfolded quickly and I don't think I did.

Bins

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 5:07 pm

You sound like wonderful parents , that being said you don’t have this situation under control. What he did to smack you is unacceptable, but your punishments remind me of myself as a first year teacher. Nonstop punishments, none of which helped, then the kid mouths off, then mussar. You have a runaway train. I think you over punished him. Threw out his tee shirt and then grounded him on 4 th of July. That’s a bit much. Of course he won’t let you “win” by showing remorse. You need to be the calm in control adult. The issue is his loss of self control. I think it would have been enough to very sternly and strongly tell him after he hit you that it’s totally unacceptable behavior. He must apologize to you. If he refuses send him to his room and just tell him to come out when he is calm and ready to apologize and rejoin the family. At a calm time, he is old enough for a calm conversation where you explain to him how terrible a bad temper is and teach him how to calm himself down when he feels himself losing it. Ie deep breathing, I think best just remove himself from the situation.
As for today, I don’t think you are doing a bad chinuch move if you tell him his behavior was way off but you feel like you responded a bit harshly and let him join the family for the fun. But he must apologize clearly and show remorse.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 5:14 pm

shachachti wrote:

"Talk to him when you're cooled off.
Ask him if he thinks it was OK to not obey?
Make the boy think!"

This is what I've done in the past for similar actions but clearly it's not effective enough. That's why I'm on here asking what other mothers would do that IS effective. According to most mothers here, throwing out the t-shirt was an impulsive and an unrelated consequence but grounding is justifiable.
But you are saying, I think, that grounding is way too harsh.

What is the best reaction in your opinion?

Also, of course my goal is to have a healthy and loving long-term relationship with my son. But I would like to have a healthy and loving short-term relationship with my son too.

One more thing: most of the time we get along really well. These few situations though are really challenging and destructive to our overall relationship.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 5:38 pm

WhatFor wrote:

This is all well and good in theory but if the kid doesn't respect you then you can scream it until you're blue in the face and still wind up at square one. If there's a mental health issue, it's pointless to talk about respect until he's treated. If that's not the issue but there's a terrible dynamic between the parent and child and the child already shows disrespect, then the horse has left the barn and you need to figure out how to repair the relationship. Ordering someone to respect you isn't going to work unless the individual is a happily compliant person.

The entire incident seems to me to be an extreme example of my son's complete disrespect for his parents.

Two weeks ago he did something that also shocked me. We were driving and he was in the front seat. DH called to speak to my son about a game a team they follow had won the night before. It was a purely friendly call, not asking him to do anything or talking about an annoying topic. Here's a rough sketch of what happened:

Phone rings. I answer and put on speaker.
Hi Son, how are you? Wasn't the game last night crazy? What did you think of X's shot?
And my son, without saying a word, just hit End Call and disconnected.

Again, I know it sounds hard to believe but DH and son ordinarily have a great r/s. I was so shocked at the level of chutzpah. I asked my son why he did that and he said he didn't feel like talking. I said that's fine but just express that. Eg: Hi Abba, I don't feel like talking about the game right now. We'll talk later, bye.

But deep down I'm wondering, how did we get to this point?

↑ shachachti ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 5:45 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would sit down with him and tell him a version of this.

Moshy, you and I know what happened.
We don't have to talk about it. You're 13. You're big. You're smart. You are able to think for yourself.

Let me hear from you.

I really want to know what you think is a fair consequence for this.

I was a chuztzpadige teen.
This conversation and making me think would have been the biggest consequence.

↑ shachachti ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 6:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

Some of the things you did, like docking and your husband talking to him, or even taking away his t-shirt would have worked had it been done differently.

Its not so much about the choice of consequences.
The devil is in the details of the delivery of the consequences.

Does this make any sense to you?

Let me give you an example.

Let's say you would have taken a time out for yourself cooled off and gone about your day until tomorrow.

Tomorrow morning you get up with yishuv hadas and you tell your son Moshy, I would like to talk to you.

You sit down or you take a walk and you tell him Moshy, you're big smart and have common sense.

You tell me. What am I supposed to think about what you did yesterday?

Now let's say you think that docking him is absolutely urgent. (I don't think it is but your child, your choice).
You tell him Moshy I really want to help you remember that this cannot happen anymore.
I think that docking you would be the only way that this will etch into your brain and will be a good reminder for the future.

Next week Monday you will be docked for the day.

Talking to him from a calm place will make a very big difference in the way this is received in his brain.

It would take tremendous effort on your end to not have this conversation when you feel like taking revenge or while you feel like you're in a power struggle.

If you feel you're in a power struggle then the nicest talk won't help.
Your son will not take it well.

You have to come from a place of wanting to help this child with his struggle to hit or whatever his struggle is.

Not from a place of wanting to teach him a lesson.

↑ shachachti ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 6:06 pm

amother OP wrote:

Why would this be hard to believe?

It isn't for me.

Whatever you mentioned here happens with many teenagers nowadays.
It is not easy. But chutzpah yasga is real.

We have to learn how to navigate it.

Btw I really think if this would've been my oldest that I would've reacted the exact same way.

It takes time and work to know how to deal with this.

Hatzlacha.

↑ shachachti ↓

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 6:12 pm

amother Tanzanite wrote:

I have totally no problem with throwing out the tshirt. You use something wrong, you lose it. I see no problem with that.

He is so out of line, playing this shtick a few times a week. He does it because he has been getting away with it. An extreme response to an extreme behavior is fine sometimes.

What is your experience with your last sentence?
Has the extreme behavior stopped because of the extreme response?
And how many extreme responses at once are necessary?

Tell us more.

amother

Azalea

Thu, Jul 04 2024, 6:16 pm

amother OP wrote:

From your perspective, you present your son as a normal teen. As this thread progresses, though, the snapshots of his behavior make him appear as habituated in calloused acts that are only quasi provoked (taking away spray can seems a quasi to me, since he had actively continued2 spray after your repeated requests 2 stop, & hangingup on DH was not provoked at all) , and that show him as 1) comfortable being aggressive & 2) able to ignore the distress of others. It also does not sound like he feels close to or cares for either 1 of you as parents.
Does he ever show sensitivity & caring for others when there's no external incentive? If so, when?
None of us can possibly have the full picture. For you to help yourself see it you probably have to write down several incidents from the past week 2 to discern important patterns. Also write down positive incidents. Also, how does his relating to you & DH compare to how your other kids relate to each of you?
See what common threads appear & take it from there.

Hugs